Wolves are rad.

[summit]

Didn’t the Colorado wolves migrate from Wyoming without benefit of a human-powered reintroduction program? Just like the ones in OR came from Idaho on their own?

Fuckin’ illegal immigrants…

That was starting to happen naturally while the activists pushed the ballot initiative to have CPW to separately introduce wolves as a taxpayer funded program.

[TBS]

So why all the bitching about the CPW program? Seems irrelevant at this stage other than an anti-govt talking point

[muted reborn]

Painting with a broad brush on this stuff isn't helpful.

When voters went to the ballot, there was not a question on the ballot about what CPW wildlife biologists said vs what activists said.

Some people considered their yes vote, but I contend the vast majority did not.

For most yes voters it was a thought of "oooh do I love the concept of 'more natural' nature populated with more cute fuzzies?"

That is why you ideally don't ballot questions like this.

It is misplaced emotion by mostly city dwellers who think wolves are fuzzy cute cartoonish fur friends just like their own fur babies (who would be a nice wolf snack) or noble beasts from a nat geo pic (that didn't include gore). But they don't have to think about it any deeper than that, because they live in the metro and the result for them is dopamine boost from the concept, or maybe even something as concrete as a future insta post from a wildlife photog.

As for the other side, who cares about what a bunch of backwards western slope dwellers think as they are mentally handicapped by their lack of city. Much less, who cares about icky hunters who murder cute fuzzy Bambis and should get their meat from the store anyway like civilized people. And who understands how CPW is funded anyway (until they complain about having to pay to use state lands that were previously free to non-hunters).

Case in point of painting with a big ridiculous brush.

[subtle plague]

Case in point of painting with a big ridiculous brush.

Just imagine the posts if the wolves wore the Kufiyah.

[summit]

So why all the bitching about the CPW program? Seems irrelevant at this stage other than an anti-govt talking point

Well, I think it is more the complaint is about typical front range imposing will on the west slope that is a narrative that rings true.

In truth, having it be CPW managed means CPW claims wolves as introduced and can help control their numbers through hunting/trapping permits. If wolves only immigrated there naturally they would be federally protected forever. But look forward to the city folk wringing their hands about permits to shoot/trap wolves in the future.

[doebedoe]

Folks acting like all wildlife scientists (be they academics, working in NGOs or the government) are a monolith for/or against this program are full of shit. Pretending that "scientists" as a group are on your side is just cherry-picking scientists or more likely--simplifying their positions to fit some narrative.

[summit]

If populations got so high that wolves were being culled, wouldn’t that mean they were no longer threatened or endangered? Don’t think sane people are going to get up in arms about that.

Wolves were not the (sole) apex predator in CO before their extermination. But now they will be. Then prey and habitat were far more plentiful than now.

I'd imagine that if wolf prey species were too impacted, then wolf population reduction could be a tool of CPW

[TBS]

Well, I think it is more the complaint is about typical front range imposing will on the west slope that is a narrative that rings true.

In truth, having it be CPW managed means CPW claims wolves as introduced and can help control their numbers through hunting/trapping permits. If wolves only immigrated there naturally they would be federally protected forever. But look forward to the city folk wringing their hands about permits to shoot/trap wolves in the future.

If their populations became so large as to need culling, they would no longer be federally protected. Lots of critters have been taken off the endangered/threatened list

[The Reverend Floater]

State agencies have very, very rarely been proven effective wildlife managers and expecting them to suddenly be anything besides marginal administrators would be too much. Ask the steelhead, pheasant, sagegrouse, wild sheep, beavers, wolverines or mustangs. Simply too much politics and too little money, and very few legislatures want to hear from the biologists. Had it not been for the NGOs listed above, many of those would be entirely gone.

[wendigo]

Isn't the Idaho legislature currently overriding the biological opinion of their state biologists? The north american wildlife management framework has many pros and cons, but it does not stand up well to politics being the main determinant of management actions.

[Yonder_River]

another thing I find funny about this Colorado wolf reintroduction thing is during Covid all the whiny dipshits were crying follow the science follow the science. Now when the scientists/biologist say reintroducing wolves back into Colorado is a bad idea all of a sudden they don’t want to follow the science anymore.

This is ironical. So you want people to follow "the science" this time - but you certainly did not follow the science during the pandemic so that certainly makes you a hypocrite. But you seem like the type who isn't really consistent anyways.

And, fwiw I'm not for introducing wolves back into Colorado, which I guess makes me consistent.

[The Reverend Floater]

Isn't the Idaho legislature currently overriding the biological opinion of their state biologists? The north american wildlife management framework has many pros and cons, but it does not stand up well to politics being the main determinant of management actions.

Yes. Case in point.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

[MiddleOfNight]

If their populations became so large as to need culling, they would no longer be federally protected. Lots of critters have been taken off the endangered/threatened list

under a fed 10(j) rule effective last month, grey wolves in colorado are now designated as an 'experimental population' which significantly changes allowable management.

https://www.fws.gov/coloradowolf

[ötzi]

Wolves were not the (sole) apex predator in CO before their extermination. But now they will be.

Not sure I follow you.

[summit]

Not sure I follow you.

There used to be Grizzlies and Jaguars in CO. A Jaguar makes a Mountain Lion look like a house kitty.

These apex predators pressured Wolf populations.

[John_B]

There used to be Grizzlies and Jaguars in CO. A Jaguar makes a Mountain Lion look like a house kitty.

These apex predators pressured Wolf populations.

There have been multiple collared wolves killed by cougars in Washington.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/conserva...in-washington/

https://www.kuow.org/stories/in-a-ba...urprising-rate

[thebirdhunter]

This is ironical. So you want people to follow "the science" this time - but you certainly did not follow the science during the pandemic so that certainly makes you a hypocrite. But you seem like the type who isn't really consistent anyways.

And, fwiw I'm not for introducing wolves back into Colorado, which I guess makes me consistent.

You have no idea what I did or didn’t do during the pandemic so fuck off dipshit.

[TBS]

under a fed 10(j) rule effective last month, grey wolves in colorado are now designated as an 'experimental population' which significantly changes allowable management.

https://www.fws.gov/coloradowolf

Not sure how it changes allowable management. They are introducing 30-50 collared animals over a five year period. Immigrants from Wyoming can enter as they please, and introduced animals can leave if they please. CWP will monitor both these collared animals and the illegal immigrants from Wyoming. If combined population of introduced plus immigrants exceeds 200 animals statewide, CWP will seek to downlist.

It’s interesting to note that CWP sez they will introduce animals before 12/31/2023. They better get busy, especially since I doubt this is optimum season to drop these critters off someplace without local knowledge or abundant food sources.

[yeahman]

The problem isn't a reasonable population of wolves to balance the ecosystem (yes we all know they can help do that), the problem is that the population booms and they become very difficult to manage. In 2022 Montana set a quota of 458 wolves, and only 248 were killed. This despite greatly expanded seasons and allowable methods of harvest. Why? They're wary as fuck and difficult to hunt and trap. So an imbalance is quickly created and difficult to control, especially with so many people in love with the cute lil doggies and fighting ANY sort of population management.

I notice most of the people in here commenting in favor of wolves live in states that don't yet have wolves. I've been tracking this issue for decades, since long before wolves were reintroduced in Montana where I've lived forty years. There aren't any pros or cons I haven't heard many times over, though I'm always willing to listen. I don't hate the dirty stinky mangy wild dogs that kill for sport as much as food, but they create a lot of management problems that are difficult to solve. So, Colorado...you got a lot of grief headed your way. You should have just let them repopulate naturally, which they were in the process of doing. It's not such a shock to the ecosystem like this will be.

[MiddleOfNight]

Not sure how it changes allowable management. They are introducing 30-50 collared animals over a five year period. Immigrants from Wyoming can enter as they please, and introduced animals can leave if they please. CWP will monitor both these collared animals and the illegal immigrants from Wyoming. If combined population of introduced plus immigrants exceeds 200 animals statewide, CWP will seek to downlist.

It’s interesting to note that CWP sez they will introduce animals before 12/31/2023. They better get busy, especially since I doubt this is optimum season to drop these critters off someplace without local knowledge or abundant food sources.

i shoulda clarified. up to lethal management for wolves killing livestock, as experimental species designation. cpw wanted that designation before they released em for that reason.

and, the first 10 were released yesterday in grand county.

[summit]

There have been multiple collared wolves killed by cougars in Washington.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/conserva...in-washington/

https://www.kuow.org/stories/in-a-ba...urprising-rate

Sure! They are a match for a solo wolf, but not a pack.

Jaguars and Grizz are not what wolves like to tangle with.

[John_B]

Sure! They are a match for a solo wolf, but not a pack.

Jaguars and Grizz are not what wolves like to tangle with.

You'd be surprised how often I wander across solo wolf tracks in Washington. I often wind up on pack highways too, don't get me wrong but there is also a lot of times they are moving around individually.

[east or bust]

The problem isn't a reasonable population of wolves to balance the ecosystem (yes we all know they can help do that), the problem is that the population booms and they become very difficult to manage. In 2022 Montana set a quota of 458 wolves, and only 248 were killed. This despite greatly expanded seasons and allowable methods of harvest. Why? They're wary as fuck and difficult to hunt and trap. So an imbalance is quickly created and difficult to control, especially with so many people in love with the cute lil doggies and fighting ANY sort of population management.

I notice most of the people in here commenting in favor of wolves live in states that don't yet have wolves. I've been tracking this issue for decades, since long before wolves were reintroduced in Montana where I've lived forty years. There aren't any pros or cons I haven't heard many times over, though I'm always willing to listen. I don't hate the dirty stinky mangy wild dogs that kill for sport as much as food, but they create a lot of management problems that are difficult to solve. So, Colorado...you got a lot of grief headed your way. You should have just let them repopulate naturally, which they were in the process of doing. It's not such a shock to the ecosystem like this will be.

These are honest questions:

How long would it take for the wolf population to naturally decline based on the common predator/prey model?
How much of the current imbalance can be attributed to the eradication (and [human] associated repopulation) of wolves from the ecosystems they were once a part of?
If the wolf quota wasn’t filled, would it be viable to increase the prey quota?

[Yonder_River]

They're just too many humans populating the high country of Colorado to make this workable. Eventually there is going to be a lot of contention that results from this decision as the population grows in the next decade. A natural reintroduction like in WA state or nothing at all. Having city people force this is a bad sell.

You have no idea what I did or didn’t do during the pandemic so fuck off dipshit.

Sure ain't difficult getting a rise out of angriest dude on the TGR.

[MakersTeleMark]

i shoulda clarified. up to lethal management for wolves killing livestock, as experimental species designation. cpw wanted that designation before they released em for that reason.

and, the first 10 were released yesterday in grand county.

Stop being wrong.