Might as well start a general Footy/Soccer thread

[MarcusBrody]

The only observation I have is that the league then CL format may not be fair to all. The EPL is extremely competitive and physically rigorous. English teams have a hard time competing in the EPL and going all the way to the CL finals.

Who’s consistently winning or getting to the final rounds? Barca, RM, PSG, BM. Part of that has got me convinced it’s that they play a less rigorous league schedule and are sometimes already wrapped up first place before the semi-final CL games. Who cares who wins the Spanish league? RM, Barca and AM are almost assured a top 4 finish and CL next season.

I’m not exactly sure how this new super league fits into that but PL teams may view this as a way to be on more even footing.


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And yet the English teams keep getting beat by non-big 3 Spanish teams in the UEFA Cup. Even if it's generally a stable top 3 teams, I don't think any of those Spanish teams get to ease up in the league as the other big teams are there. Maybe in Germany and France (but not this year).

I think the biggest thing for the English side is they get six teams in guaranteed. The big three in Spain are basically always going to be in the Champs League, but two (or more) of those English sides are getting left out every year. In this system, they all get to be getting that money every year.

[Kinnikinnick]

Its all about those teams grabbing the TV dollars that right now is spread out more among the champions league teams


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[MarcusBrody]

Its all about those teams grabbing the TV dollars that right now is spread out more among the champions league teams


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And thinking that they'll create a larger pot overall as they think that the all big team mini league group stage will be more valuable broadcast revenue wise than the current champions league group stage (plus the round of 16 I guess as that would seem to be out).

[MarcusBrody]

Doing some quick calculations, the Champions League group stage (96) and round of 16 (16) ties have 112 overall games. The new format would have 180 games in their mini league. All of those games would feature matchups of "big" teams (or Arsenal) and so would in theory command a premium in sponsorship/media contracts.

Now, all that is based on a lot of assumptions: mostly that fans are going to actually care about the mini league games. Is it really that exciting to see Tottenham play AC Milan when it's not win or go home? I don't know. I love watching the Champions league for the chance to see teams play who rarely encounter each other. Would it still feel special in the ESL? I'm not sure.

Would I watch the ESL? You bet. I just want to watch good football and don't really care which greedy group is sucking from the money teat while pretending to be doing it for the fans. But I probably care less than some as I'm a fan of the Spanish league and the revenues are so unevenly distributed already that the ESL wouldn't shake things up domestically.

[subtle plague]

As I said it doesnt really bother me, but it's really interesting that you can't get into the league or get thrown out if you're mediocre. It's just a money grab by the English teams. As I said above I don't see the 9th of the pl, who get their asses kicked in the EL, as one of the "best teams in Europe".

[EWG]

They are simply starting their own NFL or NBA. We may not like it, it may break with tradition, but it is shocking that it didn’t happen earlier.

I used to like that the ACC was 8 teams also. Lamented it’s expansion, lack of tradition etc. It’s definitely worse now in those regards. But I guess it’s still the ACC.

On the upside every week will be awesome games. And as an Arsenal fan, I’m looking forward to last place and the first draft pick in 2022.


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[subtle plague]

And thats the point. There would not be a salary cap and no draft pick. Arsenal would be the last of that league for eons because the richest of that league would still be magnitudes richer. Have fun with those "awesomely" predictable games
Of course the top 4-6 could all win it, but that is the point of watching the champions league from the quarter finals on. Who wants to see Milano against Arsenal?

[Woodsy]

The only observation I have is that the league then CL format may not be fair to all. The EPL is extremely competitive and physically rigorous. English teams have a hard time competing in the EPL and going all the way to the CL finals.

Who’s consistently winning or getting to the final rounds? Barca, RM, PSG, BM. Part of that has got me convinced it’s that they play a less rigorous league schedule and are sometimes already wrapped up first place before the semi-final CL games. Who cares who wins the Spanish league? RM, Barca and AM are almost assured a top 4 finish and CL next season.

I’m not exactly sure how this new super league fits into that but PL teams may view this as a way to be on more even footing.

you are wrong
When England has teams good enough, they do fine.

2019 anyone?


These particular PL teams want guaranteed entry, every year which is garbage. look where they are this year.

[BmillsSkier]

Observations from opening weekend in the MLS?

See my post above about last week's CONCACAF Champions match with ATL UTD. I'm excited, mostly because 2018 league-leading scorer Josef Martinez is back since going down in the home opener last year (which was also the last sporting event that I attended) and things seem to be falling into place after a pretty disastrous follow-up to their 2018 Championship. The opener draw at Orlando was well fought both ways and gave me a lot to look forward to.

The games are a riot to go to with 70,000 fans (can't wait till we can do that again) and the Club has been heavily invested in the city, and likewise the city supports them tremendously. I know MLS isn't the EPL, but I don't care. It's better than it was when I growing up watching Kai Hasskivi and the Cleveland Force of the MISL (although that was pretty rad as a kid).

[retirwntm]

you are wrong
When England has teams good enough, they do fine.

2019 anyone?


These particular PL teams want guaranteed entry, every year which is garbage. look where they are this year.

Ski off! Err, playoff.

I would wager this simulation: take 10 teams from all over EU. Have them all play the same teams for a season. Then have them play each other intermittently like CL. See who wins.

I’d argue that the Spanish league has the most skilled players and teams. EPL has the most physical and fit players and the teams play the most high press game. BM probably has the best team in terms of efficiency, lethality and experience. PSG has the best talent but don’t necessarily win. Man city would probably win at this rate.


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[getoutside]

city and chelsea backing out? no bayern or psg? super league is done.

[EWG]

city and chelsea backing out? no bayern or psg? super league is done.

Yeah this is super interesting. If the 12 held firm I think they could have forced Bayern and PSG in. That’s why they had 3 more permanent spaces. But if Chelsea drops (hadn’t heard about city) it begins unraveling.

This is all hinging on club boards. Really interesting dynamic.

[MarcusBrody]

city and chelsea backing out? no bayern or psg? super league is done.

Yep I think it will fold before it starts due if fans are able to pressure any defections (and it looks like they have with Chelsea). I'm fascinated as I can't figure out how the ESL clubs didn't see this coming. I would have expected some sort of PR blitz before the announcement to make it palatable, but they seem to have either been really myopic or just really bottled it.

[dunfree]

If only there were a number someone had come up with for how well teams do in European competitions! Top 15 uefa coefficient atm is in order Bayern, Real, Barca, Man City, Juventus, Athletico, PSG, ManU, Liverpool, Sevilla, Arsenal, Chelsea, Dortmund, Spurs, Porto. For all the Pom whinging the EPL is the league with depth.


the problem is the league needed more than 12 or 15 and the remaining big names in euro football knew they could never compete with the pockets at the top. So it’s dead.

[MarcusBrody]

Ski off! Err, playoff.

I would wager this simulation: take 10 teams from all over EU. Have them all play the same teams for a season. Then have them play each other intermittently like CL. See who wins.

I’d argue that the Spanish league has the most skilled players and teams. EPL has the most physical and fit players and the teams play the most high press game. BM probably has the best team in terms of efficiency, lethality and experience. PSG has the best talent but don’t necessarily win. Man city would probably win at this rate.


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One reason that I wouldn't have minded a ESL style competition is to see more inter-League play to see how the contrast of styles worked out. Liverpool came out and pressed Madrid hard in the first leg of their tie and Madrid just cut them up given the comfort of the defenders on the ball in face of the press and then then the technical ability of the midfield once the ball got to them. I love tactical battles, so I enjoy when different styles meet. That being said, there are plenty of intra-league style differences. Barca's tiki taka relied on a high press and ball recovery, just not quick counters after necessarily. Atletico Madrid (until this year), set a medium line and kept the defense super compact. Sevilla tended to be built as a high end counterattacking team. Obviously this changes with personnel year to year, but I think style clashes with stakes are super fun to watch and see how teams adjust.

[Woodsy]

Ed Woodward resigns

Beautiful

[PNWbrit]

Chelsea and Man City pull out.

Barcelona and Atlético Madrid, also said to be on the verge of.

[PlayItLeo]

Thank Christ this thing is dead.


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[EWG]

So where does this rank on the list of all time classic failures? Pretty high right?


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[altacoup]

I’m beyond glad that this travesty of an idea is going to die. Of course Florentino is still telling Spanish media AS/Marca that the project isn’t dead. And even though he’s rigged the rules in Madrid elections, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is his death bed. Same for Laporta. Kind of surprising that 2 of the four big clubs that have fans and not board members actually vote for club leadership (Munich and Dortmand, being the other 2), were dumb enough to sign up for this much less be the leaders of the movement. Inside word is the Fenway group (another reason to hate NE sports), Glazers (Is Tom Brandy in on this?) and Juve were the other main players.

However I am slightly disappointed. I really wanted to bring you all into the “Universo Betico”. Seemed like perfect opportunity to attempt to persuade all you suckers who’ve only followed the big, popular, sellout, commercialized, lame and boring clubs that care more about their TV fans around the world than the fans who made them (which is exactly why these assholes tried to pull this shit). But for those looking to follow a great club with the best fans, I implore you to change your allegiance to Real Betis Balompie. You won’t get to celebrate trophies every year. Only 2 Copa del Reys and 1 Liga in over 100 years. But you get to welcome your team to a final as shown in the video below.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6eoMpOFWHE0&feature=share

Or the day you win promotion from Segunda as follows.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pgv3gUxQvhk&feature=share







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[MarcusBrody]

I’m beyond glad that this travesty of an idea is going to die. Of course Florentino is still telling Spanish media AS/Marca that the project isn’t dead. And even though he’s rigged the rules in Madrid elections, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is his death bed. Same for Laporta. Kind of surprising that 2 of the four big clubs that have fans and not board members actually vote for club leadership (Munich and Dortmand, being the other 2), were dumb enough to sign up for this much less be the leaders of the movement. Inside word is the Fenway group (another reason to hate NE sports), Glazers (Is Tom Brandy in on this?) and Juve were the other main players.

However I am slightly disappointed. I really wanted to bring you all into the “Universo Betico”. Seemed like perfect opportunity to attempt to persuade all you suckers who’ve only followed the big, popular, sellout, commercialized, lame and boring clubs that care more about their TV fans around the world than the fans who made them (which is exactly why these assholes tried to pull this shit). But for those looking to follow a great club with the best fans, I implore you to change your allegiance to Real Betis Balompie. You won’t get to celebrate trophies every year. Only 2 Copa del Reys and 1 Liga in over 100 years. But you get to welcome your team to a final as shown in the video below.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6eoMpOFWHE0&feature=share

Or the day you win promotion from Segunda as follows.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pgv3gUxQvhk&feature=share







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Wait, you're a Betis fan? I love Betis! The year I lived in Spain was when they had the great team with Joaquin and Ricardo Oliveira up front. I wanted nothing more than one of those extra spandexy jerseys. I went to Sevilla and checked out their stadium. I was pained when Joaquin left (esp. when at Valencia), and have really enjoyed his return as surprisingly effective old guy. I'm pulling hard for them to hold onto a Europa league spot, though actually if I were to name my top 5 top flight teams at the moment, three of those five would be the teams fighting for the Europa League spots (La Real, Betis, and Villareal). It's unfortunate that they won't be able to catch Sevilla.

[subtle plague]

So that was a short lived dream of the profit maximizing americanisation of European football.

But but Real is going broke! Sorry Perez. Just stop paying one fantastilion Euros for players. Munich has done it without sheiks or massive debt.

[The SnowShow]

So who are your top 5 teams in the MLS?

[altacoup]

Wait, you're a Betis fan? I love Betis! The year I lived in Spain was when they had the great team with Joaquin and Ricardo Oliveira up front. I wanted nothing more than one of those extra spandexy jerseys. I went to Sevilla and checked out their stadium. I was pained when Joaquin left (esp. when at Valencia), and have really enjoyed his return as surprisingly effective old guy. I'm pulling hard for them to hold onto a Europa league spot, though actually if I were to name my top 5 top flight teams at the moment, three of those five would be the teams fighting for the Europa League spots (La Real, Betis, and Villareal). It's unfortunate that they won't be able to catch Sevilla.

I lived in Sevilla for 4 years. Had season tickets and still am a socio of Betis. Viva er Beti manque pierda!

[altasnob]

From NYTimes:

Are American Values Ruining European Football?
Billionaire owners. Disloyalty. Hunger for profit. The plan for the European Super League was, in fact, made in America.

When the announcement came late on Sunday that 12 of Europe’s wealthiest soccer clubs were forming a lucrative breakaway Super League, the first person I thought of was Terry Crouppen, a personal-injury lawyer from Missouri who was also a huge fan of the St. Louis Rams.

To understand what this Missourian has to do with what is probably the most consequential development in soccer in 50 years, you first need to understand how different the business of European soccer is from the business of American football.

In American sports leagues, the norm is cartel-like structures, where owners control franchises and share revenue along the way. Sports franchises have been moving to different cities to maximize earnings — and tax breaks — with increasing regularity since the 1980s. It is a common practice and a highly profitable arrangement. But it is utterly alien to how soccer operates. Or at least, it has been.

Soccer clubs have traditionally been seen as community assets, rooted in a town or neighborhood. If there was an owner, he tended to be a local businessman done good, but owners were considered merely custodians of the club by the fan base. Teams almost never leave their city.

And absolutely central to almost every soccer league on earth is the idea of promotion and relegation, in effect a pyramid of leagues in which good performance over a season will move you up a league, bad performance down. It produces a meritocracy of sorts — a flawed one, but one that has kept even the biggest teams on their toes. Promotion and relegation are in European soccer’s DNA but don’t exist in U.S. sports. It’s too big a risk to an owner’s investment. Why plow money into a team when one bad season could cause you to lose your seat at the top table?

And then the European Super League was announced. The news that Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Juventus, Inter and AC Milan had cooked up a deal to effectively abandon the Champions League and replace it with a virtually closed, N.F.L.-style structure was met with almost unanimous fury across Europe. So much fury, in fact, that within 48 hours the entire scheme seemed to be collapsing under the weight of almost universally bad publicity.

But whatever happens, the Super League plan has proved to most fans that a cabal of superrich soccer club owners were willing to throw away a century of tradition to line their own pockets. This wasn’t that surprising. Over the past two decades, European soccer has been taken over by billionaires — superrich owners from home and abroad. But Sunday’s announcement was a move made in America.

Which is where Terry Crouppen comes in.

Back in February 2016, while researching a book on how the superrich had taken over soccer, I’d met Mr. Crouppen on Super Bowl Sunday in a St. Louis dive bar. After two decades of rooting for the Rams, he was ready to give up. The team’s Missouri-born owner, Stan Kroenke, was moving the Rams to the more lucrative market of Los Angeles.

In addition to the Rams, Mr. Kroenke owned the Denver Nuggets and the Colorado Avalanche. He was also a majority shareholder of Arsenal, a storied English Premier League soccer club from North London. (He took full control of the club in 2018.) Mr. Kroenke was just one of a slew of American billionaires who had cut their teeth on American sports franchise ownership and were now turning their attention to the potentially far more lucrative global soccer market.

Mr. Crouppen had spent tens of thousands of dollars on season passes, personal seat licenses and team jerseys over the years. Now he, like thousands of other Rams fans, felt as if they had been duped. Despite Mr. Kroenke being born and bred in Missouri, he seemed to have more allegiance to his bank account than to St. Louis.

So Mr. Crouppen decided to pay thousands of dollars out of his own pocket to run an advertisement during the Super Bowl’s half time to tell Mr. Kroenke exactly what he thought of him. He hoped the owner would see it and reflect on “the bad things he had done” to the Rams, and to his city.

Judging by what had happened to the Rams, Mr. Crouppen was sure that Mr. Kroenke’s foray in English soccer would follow the same path: the pursuit of profit above all else, especially the fans. “How much money does this guy need?” he said.

European soccer fans now have the same sinking feeling Mr. Crouppen did. While they haven’t booked any ad time on TV, protests have been taking place outside stadiums. Everyone is furious. But the roots of the problem can be found at the turn of the century, when European soccer opened their doors to virtually anyone with large amounts of money. And the English Premier League was perhaps the easiest league for anyone to buy a club in.

In 2003 Roman Abramovich, a virtually unknown oligarch with close to President Vladimir Putin of Russia, bought Chelsea FC and sank hundreds of millions of dollars into the squad. They won the English Premier League and the UEFA Champions League. That sparked something of an arms race. To compete, clubs needed their own billionaires, leading to a flurry of sales and acquisitions from a motley assortment of characters: a former prime minister of Thailand who had recently been deposed in a coup, a Hong Kong hairdresser turned investor who would end up in jail for money laundering, a Saudi tycoon whom club officials weren’t even sure existed.

Today almost every English Premier League club is controlled or co-owned by as many as 19 billionaires from 10 countries. In Italy, AC Milan is controlled by Elliot Management, a U.S. hedge fund best known for buying distressed sovereign debt. In France, Paris Saint-Germain is controlled by an investment vehicle owned by Qatar. Each has his own reason to buy a club, whether that’s reputation laundering or, in the case of soccer’s American billionaire owners, the pursuit of profit.

Whichever country an owner comes from, all now agree that an American-style rationalization of the business — and the European Super League is the biggest manifestation of their approach so far — would yield the best returns.

The fans, of course, come last in all this. Much of European soccer’s recent financial success, especially in England, has been based on mammoth TV and commercial deals. Match-day revenue from loyal supporters is no longer most teams’ main source of income. That’s prompting many teams and leagues to look at exploiting European soccer’s huge global appeal, especially commercial and TV rights deals in new markets like China, India and the United States.

But there’s a reason the Super League scheme is coming right now: the coronavirus pandemic. Europe’s leading clubs are thought to have lost more than a billion dollars in revenue since Covid-19 arrived. Perhaps more important, the absence of supporters in the stadium means owners won’t have to face angry fans chanting in the stands.

Soccer’s regulatory bodies, especially UEFA, which organizes the Champions League, and the English Premier League, which is the world’s most lucrative domestic competition, are furious. After all, the Super League would be a hit to their economic viability. But they have little recourse. Billionaires have far deeper pockets. The Super League tried to head off any potential punishment by announcing that its members have taken pre-emptive legal action to try to prevent the UEFA or domestic football associations from punishing them with expulsion.

Everyone from players to supporters to TV pundits to government ministers are re-evaluating how much power the game has ceded to billionaires. What is clear is that the game is being remade in America’s image. If the Super League goes ahead, it will be a virtually closed-off European Super League for the world’s biggest teams. What’s next? Clubs moving like franchises — like the Rams — to the city that offers its owner the best deal. Perhaps Manchester City will play some of their matches in Abu Dhabi? Or maybe Arsenal could spend the winter in Los Angeles? Or Juventus in Beijing?

But whether the Super League goes ahead is a big if. As of Tuesday evening, reports suggested that Chelsea and Manchester City were pulling out of the scheme under intense pressure from governments, supporters and even some of the club’s own players and coaches. Atletico Madrid and Barcelona might follow. The American-owned teams appeared to be clinging on to the bitter end. And if it does collapse? Well, on Monday UEFA voted through Champions League reforms that legislates for more games and hands even more power and money to the top leagues. They will also introduce two “legacy” spots to teams who didn’t qualify but had a good record in the competition. Insurance for the top teams against momentary failure. Even when the superrich club owners lose, they win.

Back in 2016 it felt crazy contemplating such scenarios, even if Mr. Crouppen thought that what had happened to the St Louis Rams would be replicated in soccer. His advertisement ran during the Super Bowl 50 half time break with the hashtag #slamStan. He ended his short monologue with a piece of advice for Mr. Kroenke, but it is just as relevant to the other 11 owners who have signed up for the European Super League: “Just because it’s legal and you’re rich enough to do it — that doesn’t make it right.” The world’s 12 richest teams were about to blow up soccer because they were rich enough to do it. They will be back.