Kurt Cobain Memorial thread

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by Sans Pantalons
I swear to gawd that I will pull a Britney Spears and go toxic on your ass if you do not acknowledge the greatness that is the Darkness.

Please gawd, let this posteur be a girl....please. In that event, I refuse to acknowledge it.
Otherwise, fine, the Darkness is awesome. Now go away and find some other guy to molest.

[meatdrink9]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I'm not telling anyone differently, but to say a band is musically important because you identify with them is not only arrogant, but pretty silly.

But you are. You feel the need to chime in and critique the musical choices of everyone else almost anytime it's brought up. I'm not saying a band is "important" I'm saying that a person's musical taste is their own. Not yours. I'm saying identifying with a band may be what draws you to them. I didn't say a word about the band being "important". I couldn't give a fuck whether anybody thought what I liked was important so long as it makes ME happy.

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Who am I to determine greatness? I don't claim to determine it, but why deny people a right to their opinion about who is and is not great? I don't get it. I've studied music and even played it (badly) for most of my life, so I don't feel any qualms about developing an opinion about musics. What kind of person wouldn't?

That's just it. You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, but opinions are like assholes (you guessed it) everybody's got one. You're more than welcome to your opinion, but thinking it's anything more than that is ridiculous.

Critics are needed, but we've already got an abundance.

[joshbu]

Originally posted by meatdrink9
josh, dex, again I'll say who are you and I to be determining the "greatness" of anyone?

Obviously Nirvana was a good band. I don't think that is in question. But We're here acting like we matter, thinking we get to decide their greatness or position on some sort of greatness roster. Pretty arrogant IMO.


dex, music is personal. Identifying with a person or their words may be all that matters to one person. Who are you to tell them differently?

I think any 'n greatist where n is less than a couple hundred' or ordered lists are bs too.

But at the same time, critics are important too: they provide the rough grain filter that allows us to have 50 or so great bands to argue about who's the "best."

I also think 'we' matter. That's why I vote.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by Schmear
If a band today released a cover version of The White Album that was every bit as technically and musically sound as the original, would you still consider it good art?

I'm just askin'.

I would call it a musical accomplishment of sorts, but actually not all that impressive. I bet there are 100 bands that could do exactly what you describe (making allowances for different voices, but even that could be done pretty closely).
I guess it would be 'good art', but not all that musically important (unless I'm missing the deconstrunctionist way that it would actually be more important than the original).

[Tippster]

Originally posted by Schmear
The critical argument behind elevating Nivana to "best in history" status seems to be that its sound (and Cobain's lyrics) marked a dramatic turning point in rock away from cheesy '80s pop melodies and hair bands.

So to you rock historians...is this a fair portrayal of Nirvana? Did it singlehandedly change rock forever?

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Depends how you define 'change rock forever'. I look at music today and can't see what influence Nirvana has had on anyone (at least any of the bands I consider worth listening to).
Now look at the Beatles, to pick the most outsized example possible. Rock music would be radically different today, or would have changed at a relatively glacial pace, had it not been for the Beatles.

Hmmm... Let's see what one of Kurt's influences, and a close friend, has to say:


April 8, 2004
NY Times OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
When the Edge Moved to the Middle
By THURSTON MOORE

The boy looked just like Kurt Cobain. He was no more than 19. Same yellow hanging hair, fallow blue eyes, the sad square jaw, innocent and adult.

We were in a Brooklyn basement full of artists and sound-poets gathered to watch musicians throw down extreme noise improvisation. One performer played records with two customized tone arms on his turntable; the discs broke and scratched, creating shards of hyperfractured beat play. He was followed by a quartet of young women scraping metal files across amplified coils mixed through junk electronics. I was to perform a spontaneous guitar/amp feedback piece with a stand-up bass player on loan from his teaching post at Berklee College of Music and a free jazz percussionist who had traversed through New York's downtown underground in the 60's. Not your typical night of alternative rock.

And I had a feeling this kid was looking for alternative rock. It was the year 2000. Kurt had died six years earlier, and through whatever fleeting friendship I had with him, this ethereal look-alike saw me as some connection.

Before being labeled alternative rock, Sonic Youth, the band I started in 1980 (and continue in still!), was called "post-punk." By the early 90's, we existed as a sort of big brother (and big sister) group to Kurt's generation of underground America. When Nirvana became popular, we were all called alternative rock — a less threatening term than anything with punk in the title (though with Green Day and Blink 182 in the late 90's, punk ultimately became accessible and extremely profitable — at least for the new MTV punks). The original alternative rock bands — Nirvana and Sonic Youth included — never had any allegiance to alternative rock. We all had come too far and through too much for any professional advice toward stylistic adjustment.

Kurt was not enamored with new traditionalism. He was more attached to the avant-garde rock of his hometown pals, the Melvins, who continue to stretch the parameters of what rock music can be. The traditional aspects of Nirvana's music — aspects that lent it accessibility — were expressed through Kurt as if they were experimental gestures. (The Beatles, also grand pop experimentalists, were loudly whispered by Nirvana as a primary influence, something unusual for punk devotees.) These elements were an important part of Nirvana's appeal. But what is transcendent about Kurt's art — what today, 10 years after his death, gives him rock immortality — was his voice and performance ability, both of which exuded otherworldly soulful beauty.

The initial popularity of alternative rock was in conflict with punk culture, which has a history of denouncing commercial success. Nirvana's second album, "Nevermind," along with the success of the Lollapalooza tours, changed the game. Both announced the discovery of an unaccounted-for demographic, cynical and amused by the pop rebellion displayed by new wave (Duran Duran) and hair-metal (Guns N' Roses). This newly discovered audience, one that surged well beyond the punk elite to the greater population of alienated and dislocated youth, was all at once represented by Kurt.

Kurt was aware of his sudden high profile and how it could be perceived as uncool in the punk scene. He made snotty comments about the fresh-minted alternative rock acts being touted by MTV. We all did. At the request of The New York Times, Nirvana's first record label, Seattle's Sub Pop, created a mock lexicon of "grunge" culture. Remarkably, the news media ran with it — to our disbelief and delight.

In the face of success, Kurt seemed to feel the need to maintain this stump position of punk rock credibility. Save the mainstream acceptance of the relatively straight-ahead pop of R.E.M. — which Kurt loved as much as hard-core thrash — there really was no model for such success from our community. He told Flipside, the iconic Los Angeles punk rock fanzine, that he hoped the next Nirvana album would vanquish their affiliation with the "lamestream." He recounted being taken aback by an audience member who grabbed him and advised him to, "Just go for it, man." I remember smiling at this, as it was how most of us felt. We didn't perceive Nirvana's status as lame. It was cool.

After all, the kids chose "Nevermind." Geffen Records, the band's label at the time, had no real plans for it, hoping for modest sales. Rolling Stone gave it a lukewarm review. Its subsequent off-the-map success was wonderful, fantastic and completely genuine. What was disingenuous and annoyingly misrepresentative was the reaction of the corporate music industry. The alternative rock phenomenon was a youth culture hit and it made stars out of select artists but, for the most part, it was a bunch of corn to the creative scene where Kurt came from.

Nirvana made a point of touring with challenging groups like the Boredoms, the Butthole Surfers and the Meat Puppets and presenting them to a huge audience — one that was largely unaware of those bands' influence. But only the Meat Puppets would click a little bit. Without MTV or radio support, no one was likely to reach Nirvana's peak.

When Kurt died, a lot of the capitalized froth of alternative rock fizzled. Mainstream rock lost its kingpin group, an unlikely one imbued with avant-garde genius, and contemporary rock became harder and meaner, more aggressive and dumbed down and sexist. Rage and aggression were elements for Kurt to play with as an artist, but he was profoundly gentle and intelligent. He was sincere in his distaste for bullyboy music — always pronouncing his love for queer culture, feminism and the punk rock do-it-yourself ideal. Most people who adapt punk as a lifestyle represent these ideals, but with one of the finest rock voices ever heard, Kurt got to represent them to an attentive world. Whatever contact he made was really his most valued success.

You wouldn't know it now by looking at MTV, with its scorn-metal buffoons and Disney-damaged pop idols, but the underground scene Kurt came from is more creative and exciting than it's ever been. From radical pop to sensorial noise-action to the subterranean forays in drone-folk-psyche-improv, all the music Kurt adored is very much alive and being played by amazing artists he didn't live to see, artists who recognize Kurt as a significant and honorable muse.

The kid who looked like him sat next to me in the basement where we were playing and I knew he was going to ask me about Kurt. This happens a lot. What was Kurt like? Was he a good guy? Simple things. He asked me if I thought Kurt would've liked this total outsider music we were hearing. I laughed, realizing the kid was slightly bewildered by it all, and I answered emphatically, "Yeah, Kurt would have loved this."


Thurston Moore is a member of the band Sonic Youth.

Ahhh... Sonic Youth was (is?) a truly seminal punk/Grunge band like the Pixies & Husker Du. If you don't have "Goo" and/or "Dirty" in your collection.... well... you basically suck.

[meatdrink9]

Originally posted by Schmear
If a band today released a cover version of The White Album that was every bit as technically and musically sound as the original, would you still consider it good art?

I'm just askin'.

It would be impressive, but not art. Duplication is easy. Creation is not. Creating something incredible is even more difficult. It's like saying because I can throw front flips I'm just as cool as the guy invented the trick. Not even close.

[Sans Pantalons]

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Please gawd, let this posteur be a girl....please. In that event, I refuse to acknowledge it.
Otherwise, fine, the Darkness is awesome. Now go away and find some other guy to molest.

Jeez Dad. Don't send me to bed without supper.

[Buster Highmen]

This isn't fun anymore. If I farted, it would be taken seriously.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by meatdrink9
But you are. You feel the need to chime in and critique the musical choices of everyone else almost anytime it's brought up.

No, most of the time I keep quiet and just sneer condescendingly.

I'm not saying a band is "important" I'm saying that a person's musical taste is their own. Not yours. I'm saying identifying with a band may be what draws you to them. I didn't say a word about the band being "important". I couldn't give a fuck whether anybody thought what I liked was important so long as it makes ME happy.

That's fine and I never said differently.
But why is it fine to say 'these guys rule', but not to disagree? Is it only your opinion, or positive opinions, that count?

That's just it. You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, but opinions are like assholes (you guessed it) everybody's got one. You're more than welcome to your opinion, but thinking it's anything more than that is ridiculous.

Critics are needed, but we've already got an abundance.

I still don't see why it's ridiculous to argue and/or defend an opinion. If I claim I'm a better skier than Ingemar Stenmark, or a better artist than Picasso, would you not disagree (after you saw my lame stick-figures)?
No one can ever claim that one thing is better than another, and provide an argument to show why that is so? That strikes me as absurd.
If you say critics are needed, then who should they be? You don't like some criticisms--fine, but those people are also entitled to their opinions.

[Woodsy]

purely subjective I dunno, ask Kant

This is why judgements of taste are subjected to a critique in respect of their possibility.....

Susceptibility to pleasure arising from reflection on the forms of things (whether of nature or of art) betokens, however, not only a finality on the part of objects in their relation to the reflective judgement in the subject, in accordance with the concept of nature, but also, conversely, a finality on the part of the subject, answering to the concept of freedom, in respect of the form, or even formlessness of objects. The result is that the aesthetic judgement refers not merely, as a judgement of taste, to the beautiful, but also, as springing from a higher intellectual feeling, to the sublime

Best artist ever no,
have I been rocking Utero & Bleach in my car this week, yes.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by Sans Pantalons
Jeez Dad. Don't send me to bed without supper.

How will you go to where the Wild Things Are otherwise?
Watch out for the one with human feet.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
This isn't fun anymore. If I farted, it would be taken seriously.

I wouldn't take it seriously, but maybe we could consider it art?

[Woodsy]

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
This isn't fun anymore. If I farted, it would be taken seriously.

having been exposed to your flatulance I willsay It MUST be taken seriously.

[HRDCORESNOWRIDE]

NWA iz the goodfathers of Rap. They founded this phenomenona and they stuck it to us real good with dope as rhymes. NWA, ice cube, dre, snoop, easy e all deserve to be in the top 10 bands of all time. my favorite tune from the boys wit attitudes, 8 ball.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
This isn't fun anymore. If I farted, it would be taken seriously.

Only if you did it in B-Flat

[Schmear]

Fart art. Excellent! But what if you farted exactly like somebody did in 1964, and it was just as technically and muscially sound? Would it still be art?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Off to physical therapy, where I'll be treated to the sounds of Lite 106 for the hundredth time...Phil Collins....zzzzzzz.....

[Buster Highmen]

Whew!
Thanx doods, I was worried.
Now, as to flatulence, what is good flatulence and what is bad flatulence?

[fridge]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Does 'The Darkness' take themselves seriously, or is it a sort of joke? I really laughed the first time I heard that single. They're like some fantasy of what 80's hair rock should have been.

I've been wondering the same thing. It still kind of freaks me out how high that guy's voice can get.....

[Tippster]

Originally posted by HRDCORESNOWRIDE
NWA iz the goodfathers of Rap. They founded this phenomenona and they stuck it to us real good with dope as rhymes. NWA, ice cube, dre, snoop, easy e all deserve to be in the top 10 bands of all time. my favorite tune from the boys wit attitudes, 8 ball.

My young Friend - I have one name for you to research, then recognize:

Afrika Bambaataa .

[Odin]

Originally posted by Schmear
Fart art. Excellent! But what if you farted exactly like somebody did in 1964, and it was just as technically and muscially sound? Would it still be art?

One time I truly channeled Dolph Lundgren through one of my farts.

[mountainbored]

5 pages and only one brief mention of the Meat Puppets, handful of Nirvanas hits were covers of this group.

Robert Johnson= king of rock songs but he called it "the blues" back then. Thats about all Jimmy Page knew.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Off to physical therapy, where I'll be treated to the sounds of Lite 106 for the hundredth time...Phil Collins....zzzzzzz.....

Now that (Phil Collins) is a living hell. I hope that Collins doesn't die of a drug overdose. I don't think I could stand it.

[Mountainman]

Originally posted by Tippster
My young Friend - I have one name for you to research, then recognize:

Afrika Bambaataa .

Still cranking that in my truck. Nobody knows who they are though

[Woodsy]

Originally posted by HRDCORESNOWRIDE
NWA iz the goodfathers of Rap. They founded this phenomenona and they stuck it to us real good with dope as rhymes. NWA, ice cube, dre, snoop, easy e all deserve to be in the top 10 bands of all time. my favorite tune from the boys wit attitudes, 8 ball.

hip hop was born in the Burroughs of NYC,
let the artists of the late 70's & early 80's argue which one.
( I'm down with the Bronx supporters myslef)

NWA took it west & Gangstered it up