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  1. #2351
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegoSkier View Post
    That was a petty tedious process.
    For the counter edging, first I nailed the strip on all the way around then had to glue each 3' stretch one day at a time. First bending it around the counter with a strip of wood and pounding it slowly with a 5lb sledge, then gluing it down with construction adhesive and clamping it down with C-Clamps between two 1" wide 1/2" thick steel strips I bought just for this process. Let cure 24 hrs then repeat all the way around.
    For the bar, that was a bit easier actually as I just bought a 18"x48" sheet, glued it down to the plywood, then bent the edges around.
    One thing is that for sheets with patina already on them, the patina flaked off at the crease when I bent the edges. Not a big deal in this case but if I was doing a kitchen counter or something, I would buy plain copper sheets and apply a patina after they are all mounted and bent as that is what most of the examples from the manufacturer seem to show.
    I got all my copper stuff from this place: https://basiccopper.com/
    How'd you do the outside corners?

  2. #2352
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    Onward to the next project. Entertainment center. Big ass glue up didn't turn out too bad. Any tips for keeping the boards flat or working them back down? 3 sets of cawls didn't quite do it and I got a couple joints that are 1/16"+ out. I got a decent amount of sanding in my future here, but I have another one left to do of similar size.

    Legs are looking good though



    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  3. #2353
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    How are you jointing the edges before the glue up?

  4. #2354
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    Couldn't imagine doing a big glue up without one of these....doesn't help to keep it flat but greatly reduces sanding and adds strengthName:  1_1.jpeg
Views: 1756
Size:  90.1 KB

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    god created man. winchester and baseball bats made them equal - evel kenievel

  5. #2355
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post
    Onward to the next project. Entertainment center. Big ass glue up didn't turn out too bad. Any tips for keeping the boards flat or working them back down? 3 sets of cawls didn't quite do it and I got a couple joints that are 1/16"+ out. I got a decent amount of sanding in my future here, but I have another one left to do of similar size.
    5 things. 1) Make sure your edges are perfect 90 degrees.

    2) Use equal numbers of clamps above and below--I can't tell from the picture if you've done that. I know you have at least some clamps on both sides.

    3) Don't over tighten. Tighten the clamps just enough to get glue squeeze out along the whole joint. Tighten all the clamps a little before you finish tightening any of them and alternate tightening clamps above and below the boards.

    4) Use blocks between the clamp faces and the edges of the boards. The blocks should be the same thickness (or thinner) as the boards and centered. They will make sure the pressure from the clamps is applied straight through the center of the boards. Pipe clamps can distort especially with wide glue ups and apply force at a slight angle to the boards. (K Clamps are designed to apply the force straight through the boards but they're too expensive for my blood--I use pipe clamps like you.) Warning--it's hard to keep the blocks from falling out as you tighten the clamps.

    5) Do the glue up in 2 parts. The clamps will distort less. I think you have 5 boards--glue up 3 and glue up 2 and then glue up the two assemblies to each other.

    I have a big entertainment center maybe about the size of yours. Everything in it could be loaded into this new fangled thing I carry in my pocket, but don't let that stop you.

    I love walnut.

    I use a biscuit joiner for gluing up panels too. Not only does it keep the boards aligned so you don't have a lot of planing to do but it lets you get the boards aligned much faster and means you have less thing to think about as you position the clamps.

  6. #2356
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    For clarification, my issue is bows between the boards not lining up or being pulled flat by the cauls in the long direction, not the whole piece cupping (but now I'm scared and should go back and check that too). Panel is currently 27" x ~98"

    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    How are you jointing the edges before the glue up?
    Built up a 8' long jointing sled for the table saw and did the best I could with the 8'+ long pieces. Started with S3S, cleaned up the rough edge and let it sit in the garage for two months or so. Laid out the pieces and then match ripped the edges, flipping the boards to deal with any error in the saw setup. Ran all of it through the planer for consistent thickness, but I don't have the stuff to make a sled long enough to shim it up to try and remove a bow or twist. Working with 3/4" material here, so planing out a bow over 8' would leave me with something really thin anyway. Most of it was pretty flat to begin with, but certainly wasn't dead flat. Checked that the joints were tight after planing and re-ripped one troublesome piece to get everything to the point daylight wasn't coming through (mostly, they're still 8' long and tough to pass through the saw perfectly). Checked the joints for gaps one last time prior to gluing, looked good, and I went for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeedashbo View Post
    Couldn't imagine doing a big glue up without one of these....doesn't help to keep it flat but greatly reduces sanding and adds strengthName:  1_1.jpeg
Views: 1756
Size:  90.1 KB
    I don't have a biscuit or domino joiner and can't really justify the cost for a one project use. I thought about putting in some dowels to help with alignment and pulling out bows, but figured I'd probably make things worse by inaccurately installing some dowels with my simple dowel jig and cordless drill vs. just using a bunch of cauls. How do biscuits reduce sanding if it's not working the boards flat one to the next?

    If I had access to a 24" hand planer, that would probably do the trick real fast. Again, trying to avoid buying one time use expensive tools here. If I can find my way into using it for future projects, then maybe I can talk myself into it.
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  7. #2357
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    Call around some local cabinet shops, many will rent time on a wide belt sanding machine (time saver). As for biscuits, I've never been a fan. Take your time, use slow glue and use a dead blow. You can get them pretty close.

  8. #2358
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    DJ- thatís going to be an awesome looking cabinet. Sounds like a bit of hand work to get it smooth but itíll all work out, Iíve been through these issues more than I should. Lots of great advice so far.

    To me it sounds like the missing piece was starting at the jointer. The planer will keep the bows and twists in the wood while making sure the thickness is consistent. If one side was face jointed flat before running through the planer it would have removed those twists.

    If youíre going to buy a tool to correct the issue and itís a tool youíre likely to use in the future, a belt sander may be a good option. Have to be careful not to mess it all up but it can be done. Tool to prevent in the future would be a jointer, especially if you have a planer. The two go hand in hand. Opens up the ability to get rough cut lumber and make it perfect.

  9. #2359
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    Viva needs some old-fashioned hand planes. A #7 for jointing and a #4 for cleaning up the glued-up panel.

  10. #2360
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I love walnut.
    Me too

    looking forward to the progress, dj

  11. #2361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Opens up the ability to get rough cut lumber and make it perfect.
    somehow I never understood the jointer...i mean, i understand the mechanics of it.
    but everytime Iíve used one, I overpressure something and end up with a trapezoid section instead of a rectangle...instead of flattening a surface, i was progressing digging it out
    The local craft college where i was using equip had dialed equip too ó it was def something i was fucking up

  12. #2362
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    The problem for the hobbyist with power jointers is they are bulky, heavy and expensive if you want to do more than edge jointing. You could rig up a router on a sled to surface the table top, or just do it by hand. Even something as prosaic as a #5 plane could get you a decent bit towards flat.

  13. #2363
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    5 things. 1) Make sure your edges are perfect 90 degrees.

    2) Use equal numbers of clamps above and below--I can't tell from the picture if you've done that. I know you have at least some clamps on both sides.

    3) Don't over tighten. Tighten the clamps just enough to get glue squeeze out along the whole joint. Tighten all the clamps a little before you finish tightening any of them and alternate tightening clamps above and below the boards.

    4) Use blocks between the clamp faces and the edges of the boards. The blocks should be the same thickness (or thinner) as the boards and centered. They will make sure the pressure from the clamps is applied straight through the center of the boards. Pipe clamps can distort especially with wide glue ups and apply force at a slight angle to the boards. (K Clamps are designed to apply the force straight through the boards but they're too expensive for my blood--I use pipe clamps like you.) Warning--it's hard to keep the blocks from falling out as you tighten the clamps.

    5) Do the glue up in 2 parts. The clamps will distort less. I think you have 5 boards--glue up 3 and glue up 2 and then glue up the two assemblies to each other.

    I have a big entertainment center maybe about the size of yours. Everything in it could be loaded into this new fangled thing I carry in my pocket, but don't let that stop you.

    I love walnut.

    I use a biscuit joiner for gluing up panels too. Not only does it keep the boards aligned so you don't have a lot of planing to do but it lets you get the boards aligned much faster and means you have less thing to think about as you position the clamps.
    1. Edges were as close to a perfect 90 as I could get, but I did match rip the edges to joint them to account for any error here as well (i.e. rip left side of each board face up, rip right side of each board face down. Any error in setup angle would match like this \\ but it would be prone to slide under clamping pressure)

    2. I had intended to, but one clamp wasn't opening wide enough for some damn reason. 4 under, 3 over, 3 cauls, and a couple right on the ends of the troublesome ones.

    3. Progressively tightened and didn't go crazy. I didn't have blocks between the pipe clamps and the work and was afraid of damaging the work. Did have good squeeze out

    4. 10-4, will use blocks for the next panel. Got enough hardwood scrap from the legs now.

    5. Correct on the 5 boards here, next panel is only 4 boards. For some reason I though doing it in steps would introduce the potential to make things worse, that it would be harder to move pieces into position if I was trying to flex a 3 board panel and a 2 board panel into perfect alignment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    DJ- that’s going to be an awesome looking cabinet. Sounds like a bit of hand work to get it smooth but it’ll all work out, I’ve been through these issues more than I should. Lots of great advice so far.

    To me it sounds like the missing piece was starting at the jointer. The planer will keep the bows and twists in the wood while making sure the thickness is consistent. If one side was face jointed flat before running through the planer it would have removed those twists.

    If you’re going to buy a tool to correct the issue and it’s a tool you’re likely to use in the future, a belt sander may be a good option. Have to be careful not to mess it all up but it can be done. Tool to prevent in the future would be a jointer, especially if you have a planer. The two go hand in hand. Opens up the ability to get rough cut lumber and make it perfect.
    Yeah, a 12" jointer with a 84" bed and a 5000 sqft shop are on my dream list, but I'm not there yet. I have a face jointing sled for boards up to 4' long that I can shim a piece up and run it through the planer to remove twists and bows, but it wasn't going to handle 8'+ long boards.

    I think my local store might rent a belt sander or a electric planer (that scares me in this use case). Any downside to just sticking with the random orbit, some 80 grit, and time?
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  14. #2364
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    Damn -- that's sexy DJ.

    My in-progress project -- a sink/kitchen cabinet that can be quickly install/removed from our minivan. Pretty limited tool setup means some of my angles are wonky (no miter or table saw), but so far it's functional. We will see how accurately I can build the drawers on the lower left with a circular saw....

    One thing I'm learning....all hardware for cabinets assumes 3/4". I made this from 1/2" birch ply to save weight/space. But it means a lot of hunting for appropriately short screws.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	169068600_10102418276571190_4604410191219858435_n.jpg 
Views:	81 
Size:	791.3 KB 
ID:	370600

  15. #2365
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    somehow I never understood the jointer...i mean, i understand the mechanics of it.
    but everytime I’ve used one, I overpressure something and end up with a trapezoid section instead of a rectangle...i
    I used to work for a design/build firm where the owner/GC was a real deal architect and if he ever came to the jobsite and put his bags on, all the "real" carpenters would threaten to leave for the day. So this checks out.

    But yeah, the secret to perfect jointing starts with perfect machine set up and is then about understanding how and where to gently apply pressure, while letting the machine do all the work.

  16. #2366
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Damn -- that's sexy DJ.

    My in-progress project -- a sink/kitchen cabinet that can be quickly install/removed from our minivan. Pretty limited tool setup means some of my angles are wonky (no miter or table saw), but so far it's functional. We will see how accurately I can build the drawers on the lower left with a circular saw....

    One thing I'm learning....all hardware for cabinets assumes 3/4". I made this from 1/2" birch ply to save weight/space. But it means a lot of hunting for appropriately short screws.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	169068600_10102418276571190_4604410191219858435_n.jpg 
Views:	81 
Size:	791.3 KB 
ID:	370600
    Best $40 you can spend if you don't have a miter or table saw

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-24-...2685/302781709

    Combine that with a 4'x8' piece of styrafoam ($15) for full support under your plywood and you can be pretty damn accurate with a circular saw.
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  17. #2367
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    somehow I never understood the jointer...i mean, i understand the mechanics of it.
    but everytime Iíve used one, I overpressure something and end up with a trapezoid section instead of a rectangle...instead of flattening a surface, i was progressing digging it out
    Took me a bit to get the hang of it but after redoing all the wood trim in the house with maple that I bought rough Iíve got it down. Itís a zen like process trying to figure out where to start on piece of wood. Seeing how it twists and where the grain goes. Lots of light passes to get where itís needed. Really rewarding to uncover what the wood looks like as you process it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    The problem for the hobbyist with power jointers is they are bulky, heavy and expensive if you want to do more than edge jointing.
    Iím lucky I picked up my delta 6Ē about 20 years ago. As I recall it was just a few hundred dollars and I justified it because of the difference in buying rough lumber. Just looked at the delta site and they only do a bench top jointer these days which is sad. Iíd like to someday get a 10Ē or 12Ē jointer planer with helical blades but Iím happy now.

  18. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post
    For clarification, my issue is bows between the boards not lining up or being pulled flat by the cauls in the long direction, not the whole piece cupping (but now I'm scared and should go back and check that too). Panel is currently 27" x ~98"



    Built up a 8' long jointing sled for the table saw and did the best I could with the 8'+ long pieces. Started with S3S, cleaned up the rough edge and let it sit in the garage for two months or so. Laid out the pieces and then match ripped the edges, flipping the boards to deal with any error in the saw setup. Ran all of it through the planer for consistent thickness, but I don't have the stuff to make a sled long enough to shim it up to try and remove a bow or twist. Working with 3/4" material here, so planing out a bow over 8' would leave me with something really thin anyway. Most of it was pretty flat to begin with, but certainly wasn't dead flat. Checked that the joints were tight after planing and re-ripped one troublesome piece to get everything to the point daylight wasn't coming through (mostly, they're still 8' long and tough to pass through the saw perfectly). Checked the joints for gaps one last time prior to gluing, looked good, and I went for it.



    I don't have a biscuit or domino joiner and can't really justify the cost for a one project use. I thought about putting in some dowels to help with alignment and pulling out bows, but figured I'd probably make things worse by inaccurately installing some dowels with my simple dowel jig and cordless drill vs. just using a bunch of cauls. How do biscuits reduce sanding if it's not working the boards flat one to the next?

    If I had access to a 24" hand planer, that would probably do the trick real fast. Again, trying to avoid buying one time use expensive tools here. If I can find my way into using it for future projects, then maybe I can talk myself into it.
    If I understand you, the individual boards are bowed and when you glue them up some of the boards are convex upward, some are concave upward, maybe some aren't bowed at all, and the cauls aren't getting things lined up. Most of my suggestions won't help with that. The biscuit joiner would, but not perfectly IME. Doing the glue up in stages--suggestion 5, would help because you could concentrate on just one joint at a time. I might even do 2 boards at a time, then add the 5th board to one of the pairs, then do the final glue up. That way you would only have one joint to worry about at every stage. Using a slower glue might help as well. I think Titebond 3 is slower than 1 or 2 but you better check me on that.

    Unless you get lucky with finding perfectly flat boards it's tough to get perfect glue ups with S3S lumber of your finished thickness. When I can find rough lumber I use that and joint and plane it. For years I did it by hand with planes, now I have a 10 in jointer-planer. Mostly I can only find surfaced lumber so I wind up buying it thicker than finished size so I can still joint and plane it flat--if I want 3/4 in finished thickness I buy 5/4 or 6/4 boards . It's expensive.

    By 5/4 or 6/4 I'm referring to the standard way of describing hardwood. A 5/4 board started out as 1 1/4 in thick but by the time it is surfaced at the lumber yard it's down to an inch or so, which gives me room the flatten it and wind up with 3/4 in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    somehow I never understood the jointer...i mean, i understand the mechanics of it.
    but everytime I’ve used one, I overpressure something and end up with a trapezoid section instead of a rectangle...instead of flattening a surface, i was progressing digging it out
    The local craft college where i was using equip had dialed equip too — it was def something i was fucking up
    Don't be too sure about the jointer being dialed. Check it yourself. It's critical on a jointer that the tables be perfectly parallel. Find a 6' straight edge--a good one, raise the infeed table to the height of the outfeed table, and lay the straight edge so it spans both tables. There shouldn't be a gap with light showing through anywhere along the straightedge.

    One thing I have learned teaching in a community shop--check every tool before using. Don't assume the chop saw or table saw or jointer fence is set at 90 degrees. And if you adjust a tool so it's not at 90, return it to 90 when you're done. Jointer fences are a particular problem--even in my own shop I have to keep checking that the fence is at 90. There are gremlins that lie to change it a degree or two overnight.

    As far as jointing technique the key is that as soon as enough wood as passed over the cutter head, all your pressure should be on the outfeed table. You are basically pulling the board over the cutter head, not pushing it into it.

  19. #2369
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    I used to work for a design/build firm where the owner/GC was a real deal architect and if he ever came to the jobsite and put his bags on, all the "real" carpenters would threaten to leave for the day. So this checks out.

    But yeah, the secret to perfect jointing starts with perfect machine set up and is then about understanding how and where to gently apply pressure, while letting the machine do all the work.
    i know you like to dig at us, but we're actually pretty crafty bunch (& hyper particular about accuracy)
    my jointer handicap notwithstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Don't be too sure about the jointer being dialed.
    shop guy & other people there didn't have my handicap
    it was a college of craft with a shop super who was the prof -- it was pretty well dialed
    he ran stuff fine & I consistently fucked up stuff on that machine

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    As far as jointing technique the key is that as soon as enough wood as passed over the cutter head, all your pressure should be on the outfeed table. You are basically pulling the board over the cutter head, not pushing it into it.
    ^^^prolly this
    Last edited by ::: :::; 04-06-2021 at 11:19 AM.

  20. #2370
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    A couple other things. Clamp everything without glue first, so you know where the problems are. Clamp the boards across the middle first, making sure they are perfectly aligned. Then align the ends however you can--with a clamp, a mallet--and then clamp. Then tighten the clamps in the middle.

  21. #2371
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post
    Best $40 you can spend if you don't have a miter or table saw

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-24-...2685/302781709

    Combine that with a 4'x8' piece of styrafoam ($15) for full support under your plywood and you can be pretty damn accurate with a circular saw.
    Haha -- bought one a couple of weeks ago and use styrafoam underneath! And yeah, it's pretty solid. Right now the limitation is my tiny ass 5 1/2" blade, battery powered circular saw.

  22. #2372
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If I understand you, the individual boards are bowed and when you glue them up some of the boards are convex upward, some are concave upward, maybe some aren't bowed at all, and the cauls aren't getting things lined up. Most of my suggestions won't help with that. The biscuit joiner would, but not perfectly IME. Doing the glue up in stages--suggestion 5, would help because you could concentrate on just one joint at a time. I might even do 2 boards at a time, then add the 5th board to one of the pairs, then do the final glue up. That way you would only have one joint to worry about at every stage. Using a slower glue might help as well. I think Titebond 3 is slower than 1 or 2 but you better check me on that.

    Unless you get lucky with finding perfectly flat boards it's tough to get perfect glue ups with S3S lumber of your finished thickness. When I can find rough lumber I use that and joint and plane it. For years I did it by hand with planes, now I have a 10 in jointer-planer. Mostly I can only find surfaced lumber so I wind up buying it thicker than finished size so I can still joint and plane it flat--if I want 3/4 in finished thickness I buy 5/4 or 6/4 boards . It's expensive.
    Yup, you got the picture. I'll see if I can get a better photo tonight.

    I have a big bottle of TB2 and you're right 3 has a longer working time. I did feel rushed doing all 5 boards, so fewer joints to focus on would feel better for sure. The local hardwood stores don't have a huge selection of 5/4, 6/4, or 8/4 walnut, but one has consistently had a couple sizeable piles of 4/4 S3S (really 13/16--7/8") around between $6.25 and $7.50/bf depending on the manager's whim. Sore dick pricing for walnut, can't beat that.

    And the shop gremlins are real. I've started habitually checking my table saw and miter saw, before the first cut and after lunch break.
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  23. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post
    Best $40 you can spend if you don't have a miter or table saw

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-24-...2685/302781709

    Combine that with a 4'x8' piece of styrafoam ($15) for full support under your plywood and you can be pretty damn accurate with a circular saw.
    Why would you want to give up the pleasure of wrestling a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 ply through a table saw?
    I might have to get me one of those.

  24. #2374
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    Titebond Extend has an even longer working time. From memory/experience titebond working time decreases with age, so buying a big bottle might not be useful.

    A RO sander will easily get you smooth, but it’ll be hard to get flat with one. Something longer is the way to go.

  25. #2375
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post

    Any downside to just sticking with the random orbit, some 80 grit, and time?
    Yes. Go rent time on a widebelt and you can buy me a beer some time as thanks.

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