Hank Aaron has class

[smmokan]

That took a lot to record that message when Bonds hit 756 tonight. Good on you man.

[house]

i thought the same thing.

never forget, it's 756*

[smmokan]

It isn't until he tests positive or is found guilty of something.

[Stone-Free]

never forget, it's 756*

Werd.

Bonds is a cheater. But baseball is full of cheaters. However, in the "steroid era", how many people are belting out 756*???

[woodstocksez]

How would you all feel about this whole thing if you found out that Hank Aaron popped greenies on a regular basis?

[BLOOD SWEAT STEEL]

never forget, it's 756*

Haters.

[pappag]

It isn't until he tests positive or is found guilty of something.

You mean like how McGwire hasn't made a public appearance since retiring?



Didn't see the highlights from last night, but is it true Bonds completely ignored his son after he hit the homeurn?

[Harv]

You mean like how McGwire hasn't made a public appearance since retiring?



Didn't see the highlights from last night, but is it true Bonds completely ignored his son after he hit the homeurn?

my impression watching it was that he did not really embrace his son when he hit homebase, he pointed up at the sky (at his Dad I assume?) then took props from his teammates. I kind of noticed it and thought "wow I would have take a second to give some love to my kid first" that part looked pretty narcissistic to me.

Then again what the fuck do I know about the pressure he has been under to break the record and get on with it. All the dimestore psychology with this guy amounts to little more than talk radio fodder.

All that being said I will never like Barry because he just seems like such a prick. I could care less about whether he took 'roids or not. I doubt I could roid up and hit even one home run. He is clearly one of the most talented ball players ever.

Hank Aaron is all class. Bonds ain't even in the same area code with that man.

[smmokan]

How would you all feel about this whole thing if you found out that Hank Aaron popped greenies on a regular basis?

Exactly.... and its entirely possible since a majority of players likely did that.

[pappag]

How would you all feel about this whole thing if you found out that Hank Aaron popped greenies on a regular basis?

Then let's go and take away Cy Young's 511 victories and everything else since shit like that's been around in baseball since baseball became a sport.

[woodstocksez]

Then let's go and take away Cy Young's 511 victories and everything else since shit like that's been around in baseball since baseball became a sport.

I don't know about "forever," but it's certainly been around for a while, as anyone familiar with Ball Four knows. That was my point. Right?

How do you feel about steroids (including whatever performance enhancing drugs are alleged to be used nowadays)? I don't have a real opinion on this, since I don't know enough about the effects of any of these. But my understanding is that greenies were taken to help get a player through a long season (e.g., day game after night game). My understanding is that steroids help healing (at least Ken Caminiti thought so) which also helps a guy get through a long season; I don't know what other useful effect(s) they may have for a baseball player. Which enhances performance more for a baseball player over a long season? I don't know. But you can't pretend that baseball has been "clean" in the past. Guys have been "cheating" all along. Which is the greater "cheating?" I don't know. Maybe others here with more pharmaceutical knowledge can chip in.

And the foregoing doesn't even begin to get into the other instances of cheating that are accepted parts of baseball lore: doctored baseballs, corked bats, etc. How do we account for those vis-a-vis a current player who takes steroids?

[danimal's dead]

Hammerin Hank is everything the modern athlete should be but isn't, he is the anti Barry. Hank's turds have more class than Barry. Barry can't even spell humble, Barry can't spell team.

I don't care about Barry, please retire and go away. Soon the playoffs will be here again and there will actually be a reason to watch a baseball game again. And once again, Barry won't be there.

[2turntables]

Werd.

Bonds is a cheater. But baseball is full of cheaters. However, in the "steroid era", how many people are belting out 756*???

What sport are there not cheaters? You guys don't even know that Hank didn't cheat. Many sports figures back then took performance enhancing drugs. do you think anyone who got away with it is going to admit it?
He a total dick, but Bonds kicks ass and plays within the playing rules of the game. That is all you can ask of any athelete these days. He deserves as much recognition as anyone else who holds a record in any sport. My hat is off to him for being a phenomenal player, which he still would be without steroids.

[sea2ski]

I wonder how many of the pitchers Bonds faced were juiced?

[Art Shirk]

I don't know about "forever," but it's certainly been around for a while, as anyone familiar with Ball Four knows. That was my point. Right?

How do you feel about steroids (including whatever performance enhancing drugs are alleged to be used nowadays)? I don't have a real opinion on this, since I don't know enough about the effects of any of these. But my understanding is that greenies were taken to help get a player through a long season (e.g., day game after night game). My understanding is that steroids help healing (at least Ken Caminiti thought so) which also helps a guy get through a long season; I don't know what other useful effect(s) they may have for a baseball player. Which enhances performance more for a baseball player over a long season? I don't know. But you can't pretend that baseball has been "clean" in the past. Guys have been "cheating" all along. Which is the greater "cheating?" I don't know. Maybe others here with more pharmaceutical knowledge can chip in.

And the foregoing doesn't even begin to get into the other instances of cheating that are accepted parts of baseball lore: doctored baseballs, corked bats, etc. How do we account for those vis-a-vis a current player who takes steroids?

Here is what we do. We use some common sense (and its not my intent to bash you, just using this post as an example). We have potential greenies, we have some corked bats, we have some balls with pine tar on em, and we have some dudes that look like Randy Macho Man Savage jammed into a little league baseball uniform. Is there anyone in the group of cheaters (spitballers, bat corkers, greenie poppers, unhuman behemoth androids) that we can easily finger? I can.

How much proof do we need in baseball? Why can't we use circumstantial evidence? Works in Court and produces some common sensical results. Remember OJ's civil suit? I don't care how sacred baseball is, the standard need not be the same employed in a criminal suit. This standard is used because people are potentially looking at Federal Pound Me in the Ass Prison, or death. Use circumstantial evidence (and this exists on a level far beyond mere physical appearance, so I don't fear the slippery slope), keep him outta the Hall.

[woodstocksez]

Here is what we do. We use some common sense (and its not my intent to bash you, just using this post as an example). We have potential greenies, we have some corked bats, we have some balls with pine tar on em, and we have some dudes that look like Randy Macho Man Savage jammed into a little league baseball uniform. Is there anyone in the group of cheaters (spitballers, bat corkers, greenie poppers, unhuman behemoth androids) that we can easily finger? I can.

How much proof do we need in baseball? Why can't we use circumstantial evidence? Works in Court and produces some common sensical results. Remember OJ's civil suit? I don't care how sacred baseball is, the standard need not be the same employed in a criminal suit. This standard is used because people are potentially looking at Federal Pound Me in the Ass Prison, or death. Use circumstantial evidence (and this exists on a level far beyond mere physical appearance, so I don't fear the slippery slope), keep him outta the Hall.

OK, Barry used steroids (or something else). That's where I'd place my bet. But whether he did or not wasn't what I was getting at. (You know this and just used my post as a jumping off point for the points you wanted to make?) My question is where does steroid use fit among the different types of baseball cheating? How serious is it? How much of an advantage does it really provide? Etc., etc. (And Barry goes into the Hall, steroid use or no. Pete Rose goes at the same time and they embrace.)

[woodstocksez]

He a total dick, but Bonds kicks ass and plays within the playing rules of the game. That is all you can ask of any athelete these days. He deserves as much recognition as anyone else who holds a record in any sport. My hat is off to him for being a phenomenal player, which he still would be without steroids.

Absolutely. And he won't crowd you in the Home Depot checkout line, either.

[Art Shirk]

OK, Barry used steroids (or something else). That's where I'd place my bet. But whether he did or not wasn't what I was getting at. (You know this and just used my post as a jumping off point for the points you wanted to make?) My question is where does steroid use fit among the different types of baseball cheating? How serious is it? How much of an advantage does it really provide? Etc., etc. (And Barry goes into the Hall, steroid use or no. Pete Rose goes at the same time and they embrace.)

I think my post was relevant to yours. I did grasp onto one aspect of it, but you seemed to question at what point we draw the line between steroid users and a whole host of other "cheating" maneuvers, implying that it may be tough to segregate them out in light of the history of cheating in baseball. If I misconstrued one of your insights, then I suppose quoting you was unneccessary.

As far as where steroids fits in--they are cheating of the highest order. They unfairly boost stamina, strength and the body's ability to recover. They consistently do this for an entire season. Hell, they are unfairly useful in getting off the bench if you would otherwise be sore. A spitball has spit on it until the spit is gone or clearly discovered. A corked bat remains corked for as many at bats as it takes a decent ump to hear a different sound at impact. The offender is brought to light immediately, and his SINGLE mode of advantage is taken from him. Not so with steroids. They make you a different person, they do not make you the same person with an added sigular advantage.

[Stone-Free]

I wonder how many of the pitchers Bonds faced were juiced?

John Rocker admitted to using GHB. He threw some evil heat at one time too.

Jose Canseco alledgedly has the some new dirt on the 'roids thing and he's going to write a second book. He says he "has stuff" on A-Rod and Roger Clemens of all people. I can't wait to hear what that shitstorm is going to produce.

Some guy just can't get enough pub...

[woodstocksez]

As far as where steroids fits in--they are cheating of the highest order. They unfairly boost stamina, strength and the body's ability to recover. They consistently do this for an entire season. Hell, they are unfairly useful in getting off the bench if you would otherwise be sore. A spitball has spit on it until the spit is gone or clearly discovered. A corked bat remains corked for as many at bats as it takes a decent ump to hear a different sound at impact. The offender is brought to light immediately, and his SINGLE mode of advantage is taken from him. Not so with steroids. They make you a different person, they do not make you the same person with an added sigular advantage.

How about greenies? What you read is that (many, according to some) players took/take them to keep up energy over a 162 game season - makes a day game after a night game easier, for example. Where do you think greenies fit? Cheating of almost the highest order? (I'm not intending to be sarcastic. I really wonder how they compare in terms of season-long performance boost.)

[Art Shirk]

How about greenies? What you read is that (many, according to some) players took/take them to keep up energy over a 162 game season - makes a day game after a night game easier, for example. Where do you think greenies fit? Cheating of almost the highest order? (I'm not intending to be sarcastic. I really wonder how they compare in terms of season-long performance boost.)

I certainly think they are a lot closer to steroids than, say, bat corking, because they may offer a wider and more consistent advantage but to the best of my knowledge, they are simple amphetamines, that increase alertness and mask fatigue. In that sense, I think they almost make you the player you would be if you weren't tired. Steroids make you a completely different person. Maybe it sounds hypocritical, but I would certainly prefer that Bonds hork down a line of blow before each game or drink 3 pots of coffee, than roid up.

[AKbruin]

Didn't see the highlights from last night, but is it true Bonds completely ignored his son after he hit the homeurn?

Not that I could tell. Bonds appeared to say something to his son before he gave sky-props to his dead father. Totally overblown. Bonds has a crapload of flaws, but being a dick to his son doesn't seem to be one of them.

[Danno]

My hat is off to him for being a phenomenal player, which he still would be without steroids.

Exactly, he was arguably the best player in the game in 1998 (the year that he allegedly began taking steroids) and already a sure fire HoFer. The guy is now 43 years old and is currently leading all of MLB in OPS. That is fucking outrageously phenomenal. Call him a cheater all you want, but I don't see how steroids could possibly account for all of that.

He may be an asshole (so was Ty Cobb) but he is easily the best hitter I have seen in my lifetime. And is one of the greatest of all time. And I appreciate greatness, whether I like him as a man or not.

[mntlion]

[Cliff Huckable]

That darned Bonds!

Baseball was a league of gentlemen before he came along.