How we became a divided society

[Griz]

One of the most memorable statements I ever heard came from a good friend of mine in law school. She was very bright, and black. I asked here about her political affiliations and her reply was "Republican of course, Lincoln freed the slaves."

Ken

My point exactly! I like how early on the "distinctions" were Federalist and Anti-Federalist. That seemed to be whole lot more black and white than conservative v. liberal with all the issues encompassed in today's terms.

[shmerham]

I think we became a divided society when close-minded people with low self-esteem stopped listening to the problems of others and started calling them "liberals" or "redneck conservatives". That or when email became popular, thus allowing for the spreading of completely unoriginal and poorly written bs found in the original post.

99% of the issues in this country could be agreed upon by a strong majority of voters. Unfortunately we're much better at pointing fingers than collaborating.

[Maurice Ballstein]

No, not really. If you'd think about it, it makes sense.

The people who drew themselves up out of nothing know.

Beside, all the 'poor people taking taxpayers money' myths have been debunked a zillion times. Look up the data.

Trust me if you will, I knew before my post that you would believe exactly the opposite, i.e. your life experience will more likely produce a liberal slant than a conservative one, which I find ironic. The question is, now that you have arrived, so to say, will you require those around you to meet their challenges with the same amount of personal dilligence and fortitude, or will you part with some of your arrival comfort to give them an extra opportunity to not employ the same amount of perserverence that you did?

[13]

Ballstein, i personally know a few people who "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" and of others who managed the same feats Buster did.

funny thing, by and large, they are liberal with a few conservatives. i guess those that had to do it appreciate food stamps and welfare a hell of a lot more than those who never had to make use of them.

henceforth i think your whole contention is biased, and frankly full of crap.

Crass3000 -- honestly, you would be doing conservatives a favor by shutting the fuck up. you're making them look worse.

[shmerham]

Trust me if you will, I knew before my post that you would believe exactly the opposite, i.e. your life experience will more likely produce a liberal slant than a conservative one, which I find ironic. The question is, now that you have arrived, so to say, will you require those around you to meet their challenges with the same amount of personal dilligence and fortitude, or will you part with some of your arrival comfort to give them an extra opportunity to not employ the same amount of perserverence that you did?

I find your reaction to Buster's situation curious. Were it not for food stamps that Buster needed at one time in his life, he may never have become a productive part of society. Instead he might have had to turn to violence in order to survive.

I find it hard to believe that there's anyone on this planet that hasn't become a productive member of society without some form of welfare. Maybe it's not from the government; maybe it was a friend who took them in for a few months, a manager that saw something in them, even though their resume indicated otherwise, or an investor that knew their business plan would be a success. For me, it was my parents that put me through college. My parents probably wouldn't have been able to do that, were it not for their parents that bought them a house.

[Maurice Ballstein]

Ballstein, i personally know a few people who "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" and of others who managed the same feats Buster did.

funny thing, by and large, they are liberal with a few conservatives. i guess those that had to do it appreciate food stamps and welfare a hell of a lot more than those who never had to make use of them.

henceforth i think your whole contention is biased, and frankly full of crap.

Crass3000 -- honestly, you would be doing conservatives a favor by shutting the fuck up. you're making them look worse.

Henceforth? So, up until now, you didn't think my contention was full of crap?

Look, I think the opposite can apply, and more readily applies to me and those around me who had to do the same. One grandfather cames through Ellis Island, became a farmer, worked his ass off for his 6 children and could barely afford to keep food on the table, all the while helping his neighbors as much as possible. I knew him before he died, and he would be damned if the anyone else told him how to divide up his earnings. He looked at kindness as a personal choice, and individual freedom as a right that only the individual can obtain.

My other grandfather had no father, no money. Worked his way through Med school. Worked on a freighter to get to Hawaii, start a family, provide medical services for the indigenous, founded a hospital and create a legacy there. I also knew him before he died, and guess what, his struggles led him to believe that one can start with nothing and create what they want, so don't come asking him for anything. Were these people socially conscious? Yes. Did their life experiences result in a more conservative stance? Yes again. they are not mutually exclusive as much as liberals would like to believe.

I can see coming out on the other side however. Maybe it just depends on whether you believe your outcome was more a product of your own will to power, or a product of your own will, with a little help from friends you just haven't met.

[The Dad]

For the record, I found the original post amusing.

The people who drew themselves up out of nothing know.

Indeed. And their knowledge includes how easy it would've been for them to fail through happenstance; how many like them didn't make it through a mere matter of luck; and what a waste it would be to write off anyone who can't make it 100% on their own.

Maybe it just depends on whether you believe your outcome was more a product of your own will to power, or a product of your own will, with a little help from friends you just haven't met.

The problem is, it's not a question of a 51/49 split. Take away the safety net -- whether that net is provided by government, family, friends, private charities, etc. -- and making the right choice, and having good luck, every single time can become outcome-determinative.

[Crass3000]

Y'know, fuck you, you ignorant, illiterate pussbag.

Oh what's the matter??? Poor whittle Buster upset? Maybe you need a nap and everything will be OK.

I'm liberal and I had to get food stamps.

That's probably part of your problem. Maybe it was all the hand-outs. And yes Buster my family would appreciate being compensated for the money you leached off of us. It would be great if you could just send us a gift certificate to Safeway or some other grocery store to show your appreciation.

You're a shining example of that core of conservatives that are nothing short of complete morons, but self-righteous nonetheless. I have no illusions about the other side of the political spectrum as I am an independent, but you sir are a dolt. Call up Rush and see if he'd let you come over and feed him Oxycontins and suck his cock.

Well thanks for your independant input. I'm sure you're a source of guidance and brilliant enlightenment for many in the world -- the kind only a buddist munk could lend. I'm starting to find you inspirational myself -- maybe cause your so good at being dumb. BTW... why is it that Rush does drugs always comes up??? Do you think everybody who does drugs are idiots? Or are just some drug users idiots?

Crass3000 -- honestly, you would be doing conservatives a favor by shutting the fuck up. you're making them look worse.

I guess it somes down to... why would I care what you thought of me? If I knew you I might possibly care but in real life I could care less what most people I know think so don't get your hope up. I only care about the opinions of people I respect.

I'm sure most conservatives agree with me most of the time but as an individual I have to take credit for my beliefs. Keep in mind I'm here in liberal TGRland where fantasy never quite meets reality. Why would I care what liberals thought? I mean let's be real here... liberals are typically looking for a handout or for a handout from someone else for one of their pet causes. Conservatives are generally the people the liberals think should be doing the giving since they make so much money. I personally only like giving my money away to the causes I see as important.

[shmerham]

^^^
You and your family should move to a deserted island so you don't have to give any liberals your money. Seriously. Go.

[Crass3000]

^^^
You and your family should move to a deserted island so you don't have to give any liberals your money. Seriously. Go.

You're not the boss of me. Just because you're a douchebag who seems to want my money doesn't mean I should have to leave -- especially before poor whittle Buster sends me the Safeway gift certificate.

[PowTron]

Conservatives are generally the people the liberals think should be doing the giving since their parents gave them all of their money, and they have been benefitting off of the "underlings" to mow their lawn, build their fireplace, and wash their jaguars. I personally only like giving my money away to the causes I see as important, such as financing the disenfranchising of minority voters and appointments of good ol boys to the most important positions in our new, neo-con monarchy...

There, fixed it for you...

Basically, it comes down to the fact that the entire argument that "i am conservative because I worked hard for my stuff, and I don't want to give it away" does not apply to 95% of America. I would assume that coming from nothing, and getting somewhere does make you think "well, I did it, so can they"....BUT, it many, many people (like myself) it also makes them think "man, if I could have just gotten a break here or there (cheaper education, lower interest rates, more assistance with school and rent while in school), and everyone else got these basic needs covered, we would be a much better off country"

The status quo on your agenda is "better yourself, make yourself better, then keep all your earnings to yourself and screw the little man" makes sense for someone who never had the hardships of less fortunates. I have no idea about YOUR past, but it seems that way in every other person I have spoken to about this in the past few years.

Take education advancement for example:


It is impossible to go to school, better yourself, get out of school and contribute to society without incurring HUGE massive debt, and starting in a huge hole to begin with. Do not insult me because I wish that I would have had help from the government, foundations, parents, etc during my education. Unless you want to help me pay back my 75K in student loans I still own? Then maybe you can tell me I am being a whiny bitch and looking for handouts. But until I see any check from you, I would attempt to put yourself in other people's shoes before you stone them to death for believing in society helping out it's members...

[The AD]

the kind only a buddist munk could lend.

I prefer the chip munks.

[Jer]

Easy question, obvious answer.

But since the answer isn't the one that bootstrappers like to hear ... oh well. There is none so blind as he that refuses to see.


Here's a little mental exercise for the rugged individualists out there.


Rank your wealth, health and future prospects relative to everyone else on the planet.
(Lemme save you a few seconds - you're in the top 5%, probably the top 1%. Out of 6.6 billion. Or 4.1 billion people 20 or older, who've had a chance to exert some influence on themselves.)

That's an enviable spot. So, how did you get there?

By dint of wise and farsighted choices? Endless hard work and untold sacrifices?

Oh, I'm sure you made some good choices, worked hard, and deferred some luxuries.

But did you make better choices, work harder and make deeper sacrifices than every one of the nearly 4 billion people age 20 and older who don't have anywhere near the wealth, health and opportunity that you have?

Give that a moment's thought & post your answer.

[Stu Gotz]

American conservatives - born on third and think they hit triple.

[PowTron]

Easy question, obvious answer.

But since the answer isn't the one that bootstrappers like to hear ... oh well. There is none so blind as he that refuses to see.


Here's a little mental exercise for the rugged individualists out there.


Rank your wealth, health and future prospects relative to everyone else on the planet.
(Lemme save you a few seconds - you're in the top 5%, probably the top 1%. Out of 6.6 billion. Or 4.1 billion people 20 or older, who've had a chance to exert some influence on themselves.)

That's an enviable spot. So, how did you get there?

By dint of wise and farsighted choices? Endless hard work and untold sacrifices?

Oh, I'm sure you made some good choices, worked hard, and deferred some luxuries.

But did you make better choices, work harder and make deeper sacrifices than every one of the nearly 4 billion people age 20 and older who don't have anywhere near the wealth, health and opportunity that you have?

Give that a moment's thought & post your answer.

Great post...

[shmerham]

You're not the boss of me. Just because you're a douchebag who seems to want my money doesn't mean I should have to leave -- especially before poor whittle Buster sends me the Safeway gift certificate.

I don't want your money. Personally, I'm perfectly happy giving my money to the government of this country to fund tax breaks for businesses, roads that I use, a military that protects me, and yes helping some people survive. You asked Buster to reimburse you for the taxes you paid that helped him survive. That suggests to me that you feel as though the Busters of this country are the only ones benefiting from tax dollars and thus this country doesn't offer you anything, so I'm suggesting a preferable alternative.

[RootSkier]

Crass3000, you are a total asshat.

It must be hard for you to live in such a liberal place.

[Crass3000]

There, fixed it for you...

Basically, it comes down to the fact that the entire argument that "i am conservative because I worked hard for my stuff, and I don't want to give it away" does not apply to 95% of America. I would assume that coming from nothing, and getting somewhere does make you think "well, I did it, so can they"....BUT, it many, many people (like myself) it also makes them think "man, if I could have just gotten a break here or there (cheaper education, lower interest rates, more assistance with school and rent while in school), and everyone else got these basic needs covered, we would be a much better off country"

The status quo on your agenda is "better yourself, make yourself better, then keep all your earnings to yourself and screw the little man" makes sense for someone who never had the hardships of less fortunates. I have no idea about YOUR past, but it seems that way in every other person I have spoken to about this in the past few years.

Take education advancement for example:


It is impossible to go to school, better yourself, get our and contribute to society without incurring HUGE massive debt, and starting in a huge hole to begin with. Do not insult me because I wish that I would have had help from the government, etc during my education. Unless you want to help me pay back my 75K in student loans I still own? Then I will be your friend...

I think you have some valid points but they really aren't true. I am no trust-fund kid. My parents never paid for a dime of my college. I still have $25K in student loans. Not sure how you racked up $75k without graduate school -- I assume you went to graduate school.

Basically when I was 21 I had people say in a couple years you will wish you would have got your crap together. They thought I would end up in prison like the majority (90%) of my old friends. Nobody studied for me. Nobody paid for my college. There are plenty of programs to help you get good loan rates for going to college.

My point is that if I can go from being the scum of the earth (well not really but I'm sure most would have thought that of me) to being fairly successful then why can't everybody. The truth is that most people are not willing to put the effort into being successful. Sure not everybody gets lucky in life. I certainly didn't. I graduated shortly after 9/11 when we were in the worst ecomomic downturn for quite some time. They could hire people with years of experience or some rooky like myself. I wasn't handed a golden spoon. I worked for what I have. Nobody can take that fact away from me. They also can't tell me that their circumstances are such that they can't make it through school economically -- it's a load of crap. The truth is that people pick idiot majors like social studies, psychology, etc. and expect to get a job after a 4 year degree.

I'm not going to blather any longer... it's time to go. WhooHooo 4 day weekend!!!

[Crass3000]

Crass3000, you are a total asshat.

It must be hard for you to live in such a liberal place.

Thanks for the sympathy. It must be hard to live with that mug. I mean it was so cruel of them to use your face as thier avatar. I know your not the best looking -- well let's face it your fugly but thats another story... Now quit being such a pathetic, predictable, whiny douche and do something positive like run in front of a car.

[Crass3000]

[SIZE="1
But did you make better choices, work harder and make deeper sacrifices than every one of the nearly 4 billion people age 20 and older who don't have anywhere near the wealth, health and opportunity that you have?

Give that a moment's thought & post your answer.

That's a good point David. Seriously...

I think should teach all your liberal douche counterparts to learn to put an arguement together. With your organization and points, and their smarts you could change people's minds.

[LongLegsInAlaska]

That's a good point David. Seriously...

I think should teach all your liberal douche counterparts to learn to put an arguement together. With your organization and points, and their smarts you could change people's minds.

And David, while you're at it, tell the younguns to quit cutting classes to get high, tell them to stay in school, or atleast get a GED. Not that damn difficult to do.

[LongLegsInAlaska]

Beside, all the 'poor people taking taxpayers money' myths have been debunked a zillion times. Look up the data.

Does you include fat poor people who smoke in your statement too?

[MassLiberal]

Yawn, this is all so ridiculously stupid. For the most part, both conservatives and liberals have the same goal, to help America be the best place that it can possibly be. Unfortunately it seems a lot of conservatives lack the ability to get anything done without vicious attacks on the arguments of their political counterparts. The "my way or the high way" absolutism that is one of the characteristics of this administration has infected political dialogue in this country.

[Adolf Allerbush]

You can't be serious. Liberals almost always have their hand out. They always want something for nothing. Of course there are exceptions but as a rule liberals want to "help" (insert flowery touchy feely hippy happy feelings) those who "can't help themselves" with somebody elses money. Maybe that has something to do with the lack of testosterone most liberals have (I think we should waste tons of money to test this very possible hypothesis)?

So, according to this thinking conservatives would never support helping anyone because they should help themselves? If that is the case then why did we go "help" the Iraqi's rid themselves of their dictatorship? This was a conservative agenda and one that is clearly working out great. What a waste of time, people, and money. If you really believe what you've written you cannot possibly support what has become of the conservative movement in the U.S.

[FrankZappa]

Did yous guys get to the part about alaii being the cause of a divided society yet?

Let me know when you do.