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03-23-2004, 08:51 AM #26Registered User
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ok I have a solution seeing that so many people feel that " legitimate" governments with conventional military forces are justified in defending themselves but poor people without these resources are just blood thirsty terrorists, why don't we simply divert the BILLIONS we give Israel annually to the Palestinians ? That why they can arm themselves to the teeth with American tanks, planes, helicopters just like Israel. This would give them the conventional army we all seem to need them to have and they could then fight it out with Israel on equal terms ! PROBLEM SOLVED ! no more terrorism just good ol' fashioned warfare we can all relate to ! YEE HAW ! ! ! !
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03-23-2004, 08:55 AM #27
even though it has been repeated ad nauseum. Or Saddam's 25k "reward" to homicide bomber families?
To say that the Arab world sympathizes with the Palestinians is hilarious. They treat Palestinians like absolute shit. We treated indians on reservations better than the Arabs treat palestinians."The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher
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03-23-2004, 08:56 AM #28features a sintered base
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Originally posted by Tippster
How would we feel if some outside powers arbitrarily decided to give Georgia back to the Cherokees? It WAS theirs historically, after all... Why was it OK to force the South African government to abandon "Apartheid," yet the same policy is perfectly reasonable in Israel?
There is no apartheid in Israel. Israeli Arabs have all the rights of other Israelis (there may be discrimination, unfortunately, but there's also discrimination against different types of Jews). The only difference is Arab Israelis do not have mandatory army service (some do serve, though).
When you have no means of resisting "fairly," how can you not expect these "terrorist" actions? How else would YOU fight the oppressor?
If Israel decided that it had no way to counter terrorism 'fairly', would it then be OK for Israel to simply level Gaza and the West Bank? By your logic, it is. But I know you're actually arguing for a double standard.
This was a can of worms opened by the UN in its infancy. We seem to know better, now that it's too late. Unfortunately for both sides, there's no way to turn back the clock.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:01 AM #29features a sintered base
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Originally posted by up an down
good point mr. g. what's done is done, BUT israel needs to admit the truth about the past and start to treat palestinians as equal citizens, meaning compensation for land takeaways and land to live on now,
While we're at it, how come no one ever expresses concern for the Palestinians (and other Arabs) who live under Arab oppression? Why are there no protests against Jordanian slaughter of thousands of Palestinians, or Syrian secret police actions against Palestinians?
Those questions are mostly rhetorical, as there is a long history of anti-Zionism (which, as Martin Luther King noted, is usually just anti-Semitism dressed up) around the world used to attack Israel.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:06 AM #30Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
This would be a wonderful idea. How about the same for the million+ Jews expelled from Arab countries?
While we're at it, how come no one ever expresses concern for the Palestinians (and other Arabs) who live under Arab oppression? Why are there no protests against Jordanian slaughter of thousands of Palestinians, or Syrian secret police actions against Palestinians?
Those questions are mostly rhetorical, as there is a long history of anti-Zionism (which, as Martin Luther King noted, is usually just anti-Semitism dressed up) around the world used to attack Israel.what's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
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03-23-2004, 09:11 AM #31features a sintered base
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Originally posted by board
ok I have a solution seeing that so many people feel that " legitimate" governments with conventional military forces are justified in defending themselves but poor people without these resources are just blood thirsty terrorists,
How about a Palestine in Jordan and the West Bank? Jordan should be considered Palestinian land, since much of it is populated by Palestinians--but since it's Arabs in control of Jordan, and not Jews, no one will ever make issue of this (particularly not in Jordan, since when the Palestinians did agitate for this King Hussein had them slaughtered in the streets).
The reasons they are called bloodthirsy terrorists is because that is what they have demonstrated themselves to be, hundreds of times over. I would never call all Palestinians terrorists, or supporters of terrorism, but the unfortunately most of them are.
The most recent plan endorsed by the PA is virtually identical to the plan for statehood offered by Israel under the Barak administration (98% of West Bank, all of Gaza). Why did the Palestinians refuse that plan, like they did all earlier ones? Because they knew that at that time Israel would grant it, and unfortunately peace does not serve their interests.
It's sad, but that's how it is.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:12 AM #32Blurred Elevens Guest
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The only solution to this conflict is to ship all the Jews out of the Middle East and put them somewhere else. THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION.
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03-23-2004, 09:15 AM #33features a sintered base
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Originally posted by up an down
why does a crime committed against palestinians by arabs, jordanians, or syria absolve crimes against palestinians committed by israel? once again israel (and they could do it if they wanted to) needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, plo needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, if they ever want to end the pattern they are in. and as i said USA NEEDS TO STOP GIVING MONEY TO 2 SETS OF CRIMINALS
To equate the Israeli government with the Palestinian terrorists is to miss the point and make your argument empty. Israel is a democracy that tries to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties, the PA is an autocracy that shelters and supports terror groups that do the opposite.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:16 AM #34Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION.More gauze pads, please hurry!
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03-23-2004, 09:21 AM #35features a sintered base
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OK, Gaper, you quoting Blurred got me to finally click on a post of his and read it.
His new name should be Adolph 'Final Solution' Airdog. No wonder he looks stiff in the air--all that goose-stepping.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:27 AM #36click click boom
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Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
OK, Gaper, you quoting Blurred got me to finally click on a post of his and read it.
His new name should be Adolph 'Final Solution' Airdog. No wonder he looks stiff in the air--all that goose-stepping.
Whatever Dex...speaking as a Jew I have to concur with Blurred. Oh, by the way, that Hitler bit was cute.
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03-23-2004, 09:37 AM #37features a sintered base
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Wow. That's ludicrous.
Why is the solution not to move all the Palestinians? How about getting rid of all the Tibetans? Hutus? American Indians? Mormons? Kosovars?
Jeezus, some seriously demented thoughts here.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:41 AM #38click click boom
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Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Wow. That's ludicrous.
Why is the solution not to move all the Palestinians? How about getting rid of all the Tibetans? Hutus? American Indians? Mormons? Kosovars?
Jeezus, some seriously demented thoughts here.
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03-23-2004, 09:50 AM #39Registered User
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Originally posted by truth
. Let the fucking arab mongrels
btw Jews have a very legitimate right to live in the middle east ! I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians."Do the interns get Glocks ? "
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03-23-2004, 09:50 AM #40features a sintered base
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I guess Israel could've gone in the middle of Europe--yeah, that would've worked. Europeans have a long history of treating Jews well.
There were all sorts of wacky plans for putting a Jewish state in Africa, North America, other places, but historically and based on where people lived (by WWII Palestine was full of Jews) there was really only one sensible (and obviously imperfect) choice. I don't think Israel or the World should give in to Arab intransigence. And I doubt there's anywhere in the world that a Jewish state would not have come under some form of attack and hypocritical condemnation.
Unfortunately, the only oil-producing area ever occupied by Israel (Sinai) was given up in exchange for peace. I have to admit that I do share some of your ideas about oil, but I try not to openly admit to that...[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 09:56 AM #41click click boom
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Originally posted by board
WOW ! that is truly fucked up ! ! !
btw Jews have a very legitimate right to live in the middle east ! I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
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03-23-2004, 09:58 AM #42click click boom
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Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I guess Israel could've gone in the middle of Europe--yeah, that would've worked. Europeans have a long history of treating Jews well.
There were all sorts of wacky plans for putting a Jewish state in Africa, North America, other places, but historically and based on where people lived (by WWII Palestine was full of Jews) there was really only one sensible (and obviously imperfect) choice. I don't think Israel or the World should give in to Arab intransigence. And I doubt there's anywhere in the world that a Jewish state would not have come under some form of attack and hypocritical condemnation.
Unfortunately, the only oil-producing area ever occupied by Israel (Sinai) was given up in exchange for peace. I have to admit that I do share some of your ideas about oil, but I try not to openly admit to that...
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03-23-2004, 10:01 AM #43
Wow, Dexter, I can't believe we're not on the same page on an issue. Let's have at it, then:
(Disclaimer: This is just an intellectual excercise. No offense, or hubris, is intended)
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
There is no apartheid in Israel. Israeli Arabs have all the rights of other Israelis (there may be discrimination, unfortunately, but there's also discrimination against different types of Jews). The only difference is Arab Israelis do not have mandatory army service (some do serve, though).
If Israel decided that it had no way to counter terrorism 'fairly', would it then be OK for Israel to simply level Gaza and the West Bank? By your logic, it is. But I know you're actually arguing for a double standard.
It's a can of worms opened by Arab refusals to recognize Israel and accept a two-state solution. The only plans the Palestinians have claimed to be open to have been those that could never work.
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03-23-2004, 10:19 AM #44features a sintered base
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Heh--goyim...
Originally posted by Tippster
Unfortunately that's not the case. The Israeli Charter clearly states it is to be a "Jewish State," and all Goyim do NOT have the same rights as the Jews. Yes, Palestinian Israelis are represented in the Knesset, yet no where near their approx. 50/50 representation in the demographics.
Representation is directly proportional, Palestinians are nowhere near 50% of the population. Aside from the army service, passports, and license plates, I'm aware of no institutional differences in citizenship. It's been quite awhile since I've seen Israel's constitution, but I'm pretty sure it guarantees equal rights. The passports and license plates may superficially violate this, but in times of war all countries have enacted similar measures.
Also, every Palestinian Israeli has a "special" passport - different than a Jews, marking them for what they are for all to see. Gee, how nice. Bottom line is Arab citizens are a separate category from Jewish citizens - the literal definition of "Apartheid."
Got ahead of myself. See above.
Since they've resorted to indescriminate bombing and unlawful detention, along with virtually killing the economic viability of the Occupied areas, I'd say they're way ahead of the both of us.
Again, there's never been indiscriminate bombing. Some of the detentions are very questionable, but unlike our Guantanamo detainees, for example, Palestinians do have recourse to Israeli courts which regularly order them freed. Also, I think you're referring mostly to Gazans and West Bank people who aren't citizens and were arrested by the military. Most of them aren't the 'innocents' some would have you believe them to be.
If you think Gaza ISN'T leveled you're seeing different reports than I.
Gaza's never been in great shape (Egypt bears a great deal of responsibility for this), but if you think it looks anything like Grozny or other places that have suffered large-scale artillery attacks, then you don't really know what Gaza looks like. Any building that's destroyed is specifically designated to be taken down, and unless it happens in a targeted attack (on a terrorist) then Israel removes occupants first.
I don't want to do this all day, but keeping the Palestinians in squalid refugee camps has served the interest of many different Arab states and governments.
And yes, there can never be parity of action between a highly modern military force and a suppressed people. To use the SA example again: the ANC and others used "terrorist" tactics as well. What double-standard are you referring to?
Plus the double standard of Arab opression going unmentioned while Israel is attacked at the UN and everywhere else.
I'm by no means trying to insinuate that the Arabs are blameless - both sides are being obstinate beyond measure in this. If there was a true "Two State" solution - and Arafat should have jumped at the chance offered him by Ehud Barak. He overplayed his hand, and quite possibly lost himself a country.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 10:29 AM #45
I still can't get over the fact that the Israeli forces used an Apache helicopter and a Hellfire missile to nail a guy being trundled along in a wheelchair. Would they have gone nuclear if he was in a minivan?
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03-23-2004, 10:34 AM #46features a sintered base
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Actually, he was driven in a minivan, so I guess not...
A terrorist in a wheelchair is still a terrorist. British and American forces use 2000 pound bombs on mud huts, I doubt they use them when they don't need to. Israeli soldiers in Gaza seem to cause a lot of problems whether they get the guy or not, so this was probably the best option (well, the PA could've shut him down and given him back to Israel, but fighting terrorism isn't on their agenda).[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 10:38 AM #47Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Israel has never, and I doubt it ever will, launch attacks meant to kill civilians.
Patent bullshit, Dex. They have a level of collateral damage that includes civilians, get real.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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03-23-2004, 10:43 AM #48features a sintered base
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edit: to point out that I used the phrase 'meant to kill civilians'. Palestinian attacks are meant to kill civilians, Israeli attacks are meant to kill terrorists.
Read again, Buster. Intent is what counts, no matter how you look at it. Yes, civilian deaths are accepted, but you can't claim they don't try to minimize them. If they didn't, you'd see a big difference (again, I'll refer you to the Russians in Grozny, or the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.). When Israel carpet bombs the territories then you might have a point.[quote][//quote]
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03-23-2004, 10:46 AM #49
Israel is at war with Palestine. Civilian deaths are obvious consequences. You can accuse me of splitting hairs, and I shall accuse you of the same.
Israel has needed for a long time to make a more serious effort at resolving the conflict.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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03-23-2004, 10:47 AM #50Registered User
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D'OH !
Last edited by board; 03-23-2004 at 10:49 AM.
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