learning java

**steve** · 06-11-2007, 12:46 PM

i'm am trying to learn java..

background is in microsoft web development and databases, especially ASP and SQL server. I've tinkered a little with things like php and mysql, but what I'd really like to do is get away from strictly web development. I also need to really get my brain thinking in terms of OOP rather than procedural.

I could be learning .net right now, and it would be a lot easier given my background - but I think java is where it's at.

the absolute best thing i can do right now is find a job as some entry-level bitch in a java shop. and i have resumes out looking for such an thing. (if you know of something like that in the NY/NJ area, let me know.) in the meantime, i'm working through "thinking in java" and writing some boring bullshit applications.. just tinkering. It's tedious. I now know enough to do basic things, but I am otherwise inexperienced. life was so much easier when I didn't count on such things to make a living.

so, to the java developers.. how did you learn it?

**mrryde** · 06-11-2007, 01:00 PM

Why not learn .NET? VB.NET and C#.NET have a fairly shallow learning curve and there is work out there. Plus jumping form C# to jave shouldn't be a hudge undertaking

**DBdude** · 06-11-2007, 01:20 PM

I gotta agree, I would go with C#. I have similiar background, except I'm VB6/SQL Server programmer with SQL Server 2000 DBA experience. I recently changed jobs, got a 20% raise, and part of my new gig is to learn C#. Get somebody to hire you that is phyched by what you know and wants you to extend your skill set by learning .Net or C#.

I did have the opportunity to pursue a java gig because they wanted a SQL savvy programmer to move their DTS packages to Oracle, and then I would be expected to pick up java. I stuck with working with SQL Server, I'm a big fan of the platform.

Good luck with it, don't sell yourself short, and stay away from entry level positions if you have a strong programming background in other environments.

**maniloff** · 06-11-2007, 01:37 PM

I'm mostly a computational software guy, almost exclusively working in C++. I've worked in Java for a few projects with years in between each. What I've found is that I'm able to read and debug Java almost as well as C++, but building new web apps from scratch has been a lot harder. There are just tons of cool technologies that I've never heard of.

**StingTaco** · 06-11-2007, 02:28 PM

No matter what language you learn, try and come up with a little project to help you learn. Pick something that you like or that you would find useful since it will make the whole process easier. Don't shoot for a massive program or anything, but aim for something of reasonable size that will expose you to a lot of the language you are trying to learn.

To get myself a job in the game industry I did a similar thing. I wrote lots of graphics demos and a little game in C++ and posted it on-line. Doing that not only helped me learn the skills I needed to learn, but it was also a nice resume booster and something to talk about when I interviewed.

Right now I want to move to Colorado, so I am teaching myself TCP/IP since I would like to try my hand at network programming. My pet project to help me learn is a little client / server game.

**skiHOG** · 06-11-2007, 03:34 PM

jesus christ, i don't know why you would ever want to learn that shit. had to take all those classes in college, and it was a complete waste of time. i could never be a code monkey, unless it's like scripting or something.

**sfotex** · 06-11-2007, 06:01 PM

Well, since you know web stuff already, I'd say start trying to do stuff you do in Microsoft in Java. Download a copy of Tomcat and MySql, install both, and do a web page that lets you enter data on a web page and insert it into the dbase.

**hev** · 06-11-2007, 06:12 PM

I'd say learn the basics first and then decide which direction you want to head. Probably want to start learning the details of JSP and beans if you want to stay in the web space, or Swing if you want to move towards application and interface type work.

Honestly, I think your time is better spent learning .NET...Java is sort of an academic language IMO.

**tgr pro** · 06-11-2007, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by hev

I'd say learn the basics first and then decide which direction you want to head. Probably want to start learning the details of JSP and beans if you want to stay in the web space, or Swing if you want to move towards application and interface type work.

Honestly, I think your time is better spent learning .NET...Java is sort of an academic language IMO.

There's a good bit of .net work out there and there's a lot of available source code and support to help you use some higher-level functionality. I need to agree Java is great for students needing to understand the philosophy, methodology and practice of OOP (that's my background), but .NET is another implementation with a much more flexible and available control library.

**sfotex** · 06-11-2007, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by hev

Java is sort of an academic language IMO.

As in no one is using it in real life?

**hev** · 06-11-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by sfotex

As in no one is using it in real life?

I wouldn't say no one, but it's not nearly as prevalent as I was expecting when I graduated with my CS degree. I actually think it's a great language to program in, but generally speaking the end results fall short of what the industry demands. Hence a great academic language, but it's too idealistic for the business world in my experience. That being said there are definitely major companies using java components in their "enterprise applications" and even a few decent stand alone java applications out there but they are very much the exception to the rule.

**schuss** · 06-11-2007, 07:23 PM

Java can be a huge pain in the ass due to versioning (what works in 1.3 does not work in 1.3.1 etc.). I think that's the only thing that's kept it from being more popular.

**steve** · 06-11-2007, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by hev

the end results fall short of what the industry demands.

interesting, i thought exactly the opposite.

i've seen some really sick applications that are fast as hell and built in java.. like trading systems and ECNs.

one nice thing about Java is that it's free.. $20,000 licenses for the new SQL server had our company switch existing MS servers to mySql, which the company was trending towards anyway.

**steve** · 06-11-2007, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by sfotex

Well, since you know web stuff already, I'd say start trying to do stuff you do in Microsoft in Java. Download a copy of Tomcat and MySql, install both, and do a web page that lets you enter data on a web page and insert it into the dbase.

actually, i've been thinking about doing just that for a client I have - wants a web application that I could whip together in ASP/Sql in about a week. I was thinking about doing it using servlets instead.. but it's risky; if I do a shitty job or it takes too long, I could piss off the client.

on the other hand, it would take an otherwise boring project and make it really interesting.

**Red Baron** · 06-11-2007, 08:51 PM

I've got a friend looking to make a hire at Fox Interactive Media in Beverly Hills for a Product Manager - it's a non-technical job (in that you won't be writing code) but as a PM you would be developing life cycles, PRD's, etc and have to have that understand of how the dev. team builds products.

If anyone is interested, PM me.

**hev** · 06-11-2007, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by steve

interesting, i thought exactly the opposite.

i've seen some really sick applications that are fast as hell and built in java.. like trading systems and ECNs.

tis true that Java has caught on with Institutional level traders. very high nerd and academia factor in those circles.

**sfotex** · 06-11-2007, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by schuss

Java can be a huge pain in the ass due to versioning (what works in 1.3 does not work in 1.3.1 etc.). I think that's the only thing that's kept it from being more popular.

Not true at all. JVM's are backwards compatible. What works in 1.3 works in 1.4, 1.5 etc.

**fez** · 06-11-2007, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by steve

i've seen some really sick applications that are fast as hell and built in java

sure you have.

**sfotex** · 06-11-2007, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by hev

but generally speaking the end results fall short of what the industry demands. Hence a great academic language, but it's too idealistic for the business world in my experience. That being said there are definitely major companies using java components in their "enterprise applications" and even a few decent stand alone java applications out there but they are very much the exception to the rule.

Dude, what have you been smoking? Java is the world's most popular open source programming language...

**bio-smear** · 06-12-2007, 12:12 AM

Python, bitches. Seriously.

I've had to customize a few J2EE web apps (Novell identity Manager portal for instance) and it's a pain.

I do think Azureus is an example of a kickass well done natively run java app though.

**spindrift** · 06-12-2007, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by steve

I also need to really get my brain thinking in terms of OOP rather than procedural....

... in the meantime, i'm working through "thinking in java" and writing some boring bullshit applications.. just tinkering. It's tedious. I now know enough to do basic things, but I am otherwise inexperienced. life was so much easier when I didn't count on such things to make a living.

so, to the java developers.. how did you learn it?

Heh - I only dabbled in Java and it's been a zillion years since I've done any coding at all. But everything I've seen & continue to see makes me think that almost anyone who wants to get a handle on the oop thing will benefit from playing with Smalltalk. Consider hopping over to http://www.squeak.org/ and getting the goods. Then play for a bunch of late nights or few weekends. The language and environment are quite consistent in terms of the object thing - like way deep down without many of the common syntactic/semantic, or compatibility compromises seen in most other contexts. You won't write any commercial apps in the stuff. But you'll get a great handle on the seminal concepts and terminology. After that all the other oop & abstract data type languages are just variations on a theme. Not surprising, since they are virtually all Smalltalk inspired (ignoring, for the moment, the fact that Smalltalk itself combined the oop concepts in Simula with the dynamic environment of LISP -- but that's just geeking out on ancient history - just play with the damn thing....).

And yes, I know I have a weird - or at least unusual - set of opinions on this...

**fez** · 06-12-2007, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by sfotex

Dude, what have you been smoking? Java is the world's most popular open source programming language...

java only recently went open source.

**schuss** · 06-12-2007, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by sfotex

Not true at all. JVM's are backwards compatible. What works in 1.3 works in 1.4, 1.5 etc.

No, it doesn't. Trust me. I help support a java app, and it's a game of trying to find what version works with the product. We're not the only ones either, as we often have to play an even more fun game of "which supported version matches all the others!"

**sfotex** · 06-12-2007, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by schuss

No, it doesn't. Trust me. I help support a java app, and it's a game of trying to find what version works with the product. We're not the only ones either, as we often have to play an even more fun game of "which supported version matches all the others!"

What kind of app?

**sfotex** · 06-12-2007, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by fez

java only recently went open source.

Ok, fine, Java is the most popular programming language...

http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

The point is that Java is by no means an academic programming language. I'm sure there's studies that show Microsoft is more popular, etc. but there is alot of Java code out there running alot of stuff.