Is the stock market going to tank?

[Rontele]

St. Louis Fed Chair said today that it would be unwise for the fed to cut rates before the next meeting as the poor fundamentals in the market due to the recent credit squeeze hasn't spread to the larger macro indicators. I got out of holding pure equities about three years ago in lieu of broader diversification. Nothing is really safe in this recent sell-off, but for cash--which I have been holding a large percentage of for the last year--but the hit isn't as large as it was in say--2000.

[4matic]

Look at long term charts, and it's barely a blip.
.

You have to look at percentages for that year. 30% now would be 4500 dow points. 1929-34 looks like a blip on the long term chart too.

[Benny Profane]

You have to look at percentages for that year. 30% now would be 4500 dow points. 1929-34 looks like a blip on the long term chart too.

You're too young. Unless you have to manage other people's money and have to show results every 3 months. Then I'd be worried.

[Eldritch Ghast]

Black line:
Ten years of historical daily price data at market close, adjusted for dividends and splits, for the S&P 500 index from Jan 1 1996 through Dec 31 2005. Shown on log10 scale.
Ten-year move from 620.73 to 1248.3, a 101.1% gain.

Green line:
What the S&P would've looked like without the ten worst days (replacing the downward moves on those days with no change.) Ending 229.2% up.

Red line:
What the S&P would've looked like without the ten best days. Ending at 25.37% above the initial price.

Total inflation during that period was 23.51%.

Data from here.

[Endlessseason]

Lets say your average sale price is 13,350. Dow now around 12,700. You saved 650 dow points. About 4%. A 4% swing in equity prices is a statistical anomaly if you are investing for the long term.

Um. Yeah.

I wouldn't have sold if I thought it was only going to be a 4% "swing."

[4matic]

All the way back! lol.. Gotta love it.

[CUBUCK]

Anxious to hear what this means from all you chart guys?

[4matic]

The market touched a 10% correction and bounced off support at 12,500 (where it broke out last time). Other than that the trend is still down. Technically you'd still sell rallies like CE said. Short term charts mean nothing right now..

[BeanDip4All]

"7 sigma event," my ass.

[Yossarian]

Court, you're making us all hot and bothered with the stats talk.


The thing is, everyone always overlooks the dependence of variables. We can't help it - we're wired and trained to think about things independently. But in fact, a lot of these things - market liquidity, real estate, securities, inflation, currencies, etc, etc, etc are dependent variables, admittedly at various levels of correlation. As information gets richer, markets get more globalized and integrated, and individuals and groups alike get savvier, this only becomes more true.

Point being, it's really a lot less rare than many people think it is to see "rare" events take place.
Joint probability just isn't as intuitive.

[Cono Este]

That was fun.

[Buster Highmen]

Court, you're making us all hot and bothered with the stats talk.


The thing is, everyone always overlooks the dependence of variables. We can't help it - we're wired and trained to think about things independently. But in fact, a lot of these things - market liquidity, real estate, securities, inflation, currencies, etc, etc, etc are dependent variables, admittedly at various levels of correlation. As information gets richer, markets get more globalized and integrated, and individuals and groups alike get savvier, this only becomes more true.

Point being, it's really a lot less rare than many people think it is to see "rare" events take place.
Joint probability just isn't as intuitive.

Doesn't this make us tensor and tensor?

[smitchell333]

Its all educated speculation.

[Yossarian]

Doesn't this make us tensor and tensor?

Funny guy.

I thought it was speculative education?

[Alek]

This probably belongs in the housing market crash thread, but I can't find it right now...

Housing crash trajectory prediction onver 15 years

I sure hope this guy is wrong, I cannot wait for 15 years to sell my house!

[Benny Profane]

This probably belongs in the housing market crash thread, but I can't find it right now...

Housing crash trajectory prediction onver 15 years

I sure hope this guy is wrong, I cannot wait for 15 years to sell my house!

shit, I'll be dead by then. Well, not really. Maybe a nice condo with ocean view in Boca....hmmmmm.........

[Sponge McBragg]

This article is 2 and half years old.


Housing Bubble Correction

Fifteeen Years to Revert to the Mean

January 20, 2005

"If there is a real shift downward in housing demand, it would have a dramatic impact across the entire economy," said John Benjamin, a professor of finance and real estate at American University.

Millions of Americans have become dependent upon rising home values to support home-equity loans and mortgage refinancings, which can be used to pay for cars, remodeling projects, clothes and more.

"We live in a consumption economy that is financed by debt," which in turn largely rests upon our home foundations, Benjamin said.

The labor market, too, depends upon feeding the hunger for housing.

Since the beginning of the economic recovery in November 2001, employment in housing and housing-related industries has accounted for 43% of the increase in private-sector payrolls, according to Asha Bangalore, an economist for Northern Trust Corp.

- Experts ask: Is there a housing bubble?

Housing bubbles don't collapse suddenly. They go through a long series of self-reinforcing deflationary stages that typically last five to seven years. Given the extreme and unprecedented nature of the current housing bubble, I expect a ten- to fifteen-year downturn to follow this boom. The government will step in with all manner of supports and bailouts along the way, similar to those that created the bubble in the first place, so the exact trajectory of the decline is impossible to predict. Here I estimate how and over what time period the decline may occur. Related Links

Yes. It's a housing bubble.

Housing Bubbles Are not Like Stock Market Bubbles

Housing Bubble Correction Update


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

iTulip.com Ad Policy




Chart 1: Correlation of Housing Prices to Employment


Chart 1 above shows that housing prices are strongly correlated to the unemployment rate. Housing prices fall as unemployment rises, and vice versa. Given that 43% of all jobs created since 2001 are housing (bubble)-related, a decline in housing-related payrolls can be expected to reinforce housing price declines in the bust part of the cycle. The rate of home equity extraction is a good proxy for the housing market itself. Home equity extraction tends to rise in line with property values and declines on the way down; no home owner wants to borrow against a deflating asset, and no bank wants to secure a loan against one either.



Chart 2: Home Equity Extraction - Past and Predicted


We'll use home equity extraction as our yardstick to project the bust. Thanks to my friend Paul Kasriel at Northern Trust for the original of Chart 2, which shows home equity extraction from 1950 until 2005. I have modified it to show a possible trajectory of home equity extraction decline in seven steps, A through G, from now until 2020. While I'm fairly confident in the length of the entire process, the length and timing of each step is subject to a wide range of error.

Step A: You are here. Whether the rate of home equity extraction implodes from here (as shown) or decreases more gradually is a matter of debate, although in past boom-bust cycles, the bust rate of decline has been significantly more rapid than the boom rate of growth. What is not debatable is whether the rate of home equity extraction will revert to the mean rate of about zero, from the current rate of more than $250 billion annually. It will.

In fact, the rate of home equity extraction will tend to overshoot the mean to reach an extreme negative rate of equity extraction (building equity) that's twice the rate of positive extraction that occurred during the boom phase. This relationship occurred in the previous two cycles, which bottomed in 1982 and 1995, respectively. This implies negative equity extraction of minus $500 billion per year at the cycle trough. Chart 2 shows a more optimistic prediction of negative $250 billion occurring between 2015 and 2020. This more prosaic estimate accounts for government efforts to mitigate the impact and minimize the overshoot, by offering specialized loans, making direct purchases of securitized mortgage debt, and so on.

Step B: As housing prices begin to decline, sales will continue, though more slowly and less frequently. Old habits die slowly. One year into the decline, housing speculators will have left the market, but home owners will generally still believe that prices will either resume their rise or at least flatten out, not continue to decline. Remember the first year of the stock market bubble decline, when most people hung in there until they'd lost all of their money? The first lesson of behavioral finance is that the most common mistake made by market participants is to hang on too long and fail to cut losses.

While home owners at this stage will borrow less against their houses, and loans will be more difficult to come by, the average home owner will still make frequent trips to Home Depot or hire contractors to make home repairs and improvements, believing they'll "get their money back" in an increase in the value of their home at least equal to the cost of fixing it. Some home owners will put their home up for sale—if they purchased early enough in the boom so that they can still realize a profit, even selling at five to twenty percent below the peak price.



Step C: After prices have declined for two years, large numbers of buyers who purchased near the top of the market will begin to feel the psychological effects of being underwater on their mortgage. They will be less inclined to borrow money, or to spend money fixing up their home, as home improvement value increases will be swallowed up by general market price declines. There will still be profits to be made by those who bought very early in the previous boom cycle, but fewer people will have this option.

As transaction volumes continue to fall, demand for housing-related employment will decline too. The first signs of labor market distress will start to show up, as more and more of that 43% of the private sector who found jobs in the housing industry are no longer needed. Coincidentally, major employers—such as the U.S. auto industry—will be going through major restructuring, adding to pressures on housing prices in some areas. Some home owners will need to sell at a loss in order to move to regions of the country where the labor picture is better, and will do this if they have enough equity and are not paying cash out of pocket to cover their remaining mortgage obligations. These sales will further depress home prices.

Step D: Three years into the decline, marginal home buyers will learn what owning a home really costs, versus renting when housing prices are declining and jobs are more scarce. Rent is a fixed cost, whereas home ownership presents many variable costs, including increased interest payments on ARMs, and rising tax, insurance, and energy costs. Also, upkeep for the average home typically costs five to ten percent of the price of the home, annually. As prices fall, homeowners will have less access to home equity loans. Many will not be able to afford repair and maintenance expenses. Homes in some neighborhoods—and in some cases, entire neighborhoods—will begin to look neglected, further depressing prices.

Step E: Five years into the downturn, rising unemployment will begin to more seriously affect the market, as indicated in Chart 1. As unemployment rises, homeowners will leave housing bust regions to move to areas where there are more jobs. Many houses will be sold at a loss, or even abandoned, as the market price falls below the loan value. Given the choice between paying cash out of pocket to sell their home or leaving the keys with the bank, many home owners will make the latter choice.

Step F: Ten years into the downturn, real estate will be widely regarded as a terrible, "can't win" investment. McMansions will be subdivided for rental as multi-family homes.

Step G: Ten to fifteen years after the start of the decline in housing values, prices will bottom out, setting the stage for the next boom. Time to buy.







I'm confused now.When will this take place and where?

Vail,Aspen,Jackson, or Detroit,Hoboken,and Gary? Location means nothing and it will be a blanket affect where even the uber rich are?

I'm holding out for a mcmansion subdivide I'm gonna be in Jackson on a hilltop for like 50'000 grand in the walk out basement apartment.

Yes,Yes,or maybe? I love this internet doomsday thing where location means nothing.

[bean]

I'm confused now.When will this take place and where?

Vail,Aspen,Jackson, or Detroit,Hoboken,and Gary? Location means nothing and it will be a blanket affect where even the uber rich are?

I'm holding out for a mcmansion subdivide I'm gonna be in Jackson on a hilltop for like 50'000 grand in the walk out basement apartment.

Yes,Yes,or maybe? I love this internet doomsday thing where location means nothing.

The super-rich are largely unaffected by "corrections" like this. However, many of the mcmansions are bought by people who can largely afford them, but mostly in more urban/suburban areas rather than as second homes. I'd rather just buy one of those, subdivide it out, and buy a condo in Jackson with the proceeds.

[Benny Profane]

What worries me if this guy is right with the 15 year estimate (I think it's more like 5-7), is that it coincides directly with the first boomers hitting retirement and using social security and medicare. Not good for the economy at all. They have no savings, and now no equity to tap.

[cj001f]

The super-rich are largely unaffected by "corrections" like this.

So those private investors (or more appropriately when speaking of Jackson, the hedge fund managers) who have hedge fund positions won't be impacted by the meltdown in that sector

[bean]

So those private investors (or more appropriately when speaking of Jackson, the hedge fund managers) who have hedge fund positions won't be impacted by the meltdown in that sector

I'm talking about people with millions upon millions in cashmoney. The kinds who buy mansions in aspen and enzo's.

[Cono Este]

Well goly, does that explain the 300 pt rally in the final 45 minutes yesterday? Must be nice to be privy to that type of information.

What a bunch of fucking street walking whores!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

Whores!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CUBUCK]

Should be a nice day for the portfolio of mortgage REITs I've put together in the last few days.

"be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful"

[Cono Este]

Yep, Thornburg up 3 1/2 premkt, i got some of that as well as some of the builders.

"To buy when others are depondently selling, and to sell when others are avidly buying, requires the greatest fortitude and pays the highest reward" Sir John Templeton.

The volatility aint over though.

[CUBUCK]

The volatility aint over though.

I hope not, need it to save a couple of options positions