Is the stock market going to tank?

[Benny Profane]

Anybody who buys Lyft and Uber at these valuations should be sterilized.

[yeahman]

Anybody who buys Lyft and Uber at these valuations should be sterilized.

^^This. So many issues. Both losing hundreds of millions a year, yeah they are growing revenue but still. Heard a story on NPR the other day interviewing drivers about how Lyft and Uber have been driving their wages down trying to look less unprofitable for the IPOs. Fucked up. I boycott both until they bring wages back up. I hope they both fail miserably and anybody who invests in these bloodsuckers loses all their money.

[Brock Landers]

yeah they are growing revenue but still.

This probably shouldn’t be so quickly glossed over

[yeahman]

This probably shouldn’t be so quickly glossed over

Yeah, but they're doing it by screwing over their drivers. Is that sustainable? Especially when they require a certain "niceness" to the vehicles. Can't be picking people up in junkers now can we? But according to the NPR story (admittedly a biased news source), drivers are making like half or a third of what they used to. YOu can only squeeze so much blood out of a turnip.

Edit to add: As with many IPOs, the execs just want to walk away with their pockets lined and they don't really give a fuck about anything else.

[Brock Landers]

That’s not how they are growing revenues. They are expanding the number of drivers and, ultimately, rides in this country- more rides and drivers in cities and also expanding in the suburbs. How do they get enough drivers to expand? Because the wage thing is a headline and not a story. They’re also expanding into countries with zero to little Uber (or Uber owned companies) exposure,again, through drivers that make more $ than in whatever they else they were doing with their time.

Nickel and diming drivers isn’t how you grow revenue billions of dollars. And keeping those drivers working helps keep ridership numbers high because prices stay “normal”. Otherwise people use cabs. Or walk. So if the wage thing was really a problem wouldn’t there be upheaval and problems with drivers...and not just a topic in a probably-biased podcast or radio show?

[Brock Landers]

That said I’m not exactly a huge Uber buyer at these levels. I get the growth and opportunity using the network (UberEats multiplied by a bunch of things and down the road with driverless cars) but what’s to stop another company or technology coming in? Not too much. So I’ll invest elsewhere

[yeahman]

So if the wage thing was really a problem wouldn’t there be upheaval and problems with drivers...and not just a topic in a probably-biased podcast or radio show?

I'm sure you heard about the driver strike in L.A. Frankly these drivers have, or will have, these companies over a barrel. No drivers and the whole thing falls apart. Is there an endless supply of drivers willing to work for lower and lower wages? Who own nice enough cars? That's not a bet I'd be willing to take. There's a tipping point there.

And while I agree they are growing revenue for reasons other than nickel and diming drivers--why, then, are they nickel and diming drivers? They interviewed the person who organized the strike and she laid out some pretty damning evidence regarding the decline in how much the drivers are making. A few years ago people could actually pay the bills with this gig if they drove enough. Now, no way. I don't recall the exact numbers.

And if they're banking on driverless cars, then they got about 25 years to wait before that's a mainstream reality IMO. So many societal issues with that concept that haven't even begun to be hashed out.

[4matic]

How much is the cost of a dollar in income growth? I’m more interested in whether the iPod holds its price short term and what that does to Uber.

Stock futures up big out of the chute tonight is a bit of surprise.

[Benny Profane]

And if they're banking on driverless cars, then they got about 25 years to wait before that's a mainstream reality IMO. So many societal issues with that concept that haven't even begun to be hashed out.

That's the only way any moron is going to make any fucking money on this shit, if Uber and Lyft actually have thousands of disgusting, piss, shit, and puke filled boxes buzzing around cities delivering people and food and crap to places, with no drivers, and are granted a monopoly for the pleasure. The original hucksters and scam artists who still push that idiotic fantasy are about to cash in big, but, any fool who actually buys into these companies that are losing billions with no reversal in sight deserves to die poor.

[Benny Profane]

https://www.profgalloway.com/lyft-off

[muted]

And if they're banking on driverless cars, then they got about 25 years to wait before that's a mainstream reality IMO. So many societal issues with that concept that haven't even begun to be hashed out.

Just a quick comment, not saying it's coming soon or societal problems have been solved....I was in Vegas last week and was able to pick a driverless car as an option. So I did, and saw a blonde woman was picking me up in a new BMW 5 series. I was confused, then the car showed up and there were two workers in it. They worked for some 2nd party company (and you can't tip them). The car was self-driving, but the driver had to take control on private property. Which was a big limit on these big casinos down there. The car can see everything around within 200 meters, which is crazy. Maybe it's just like a Tesla that tons of people are already using, but I was impressed, especially since they can make it work in a BMW. No point I'm trying to make, just an observation.

It seemed like a big research program for the 3rd party company (lots a data being recorded) and to raise awareness for them, and Lyft probably gets free or almost free workers while seeing how it all works without direct responsibility. If you crashed, I'm thinking you'd go after the 3rd party not just Lyft.

[yeahman]

The technology does sound amazing. I have to wonder if there are any limitations, i.e. does it work as well in a thick fog? A wicked downpour? Can it still "see" 200 meters in those conditions? What does it "see" exactly? Is it just bouncing signals off shit like a bat so it knows where to go? Is it using Google maps, because although they've gotten much better we all know they still aren't 100% accurate and never will be probably. I really don't even understand how it all works. Probably some combination of all this.

But when a driverless Lyft car runs over a few kids in a crosswalk, which you know is going to happen eventually, or some similar emotionally driven occurrence (more so than the pedestrian already killed), then what happens? I suppose Lyft's insurance company will pick up the tab, but who do you blame? Who explains to the parents of the kids that it's okay because statistically the driverless car is safer than one driven by a human? That their kids are just kind of collateral damage in the march toward...something. The future. More money for the corporations. I don't know exactly. I mean does anybody here really MIND driving? I don't mind driving. I think most people like it, maybe not in NYC but most people around the country. So what exactly is the point of all this driverless stuff, other than to make more money for Lyft and Uber and Amazon and maybe FedEx and UPS?

So after the huge outcry about the dead kids, communities will start passing laws that every driverless car needs a "safety person" on board, and basically we're back where we started. And if the ride companies want to stay in business they'll have to charge more for their services--just like a real taxi company. Because what a real old-fashioned taxi costs now is probably what it costs for a reason. Because otherwise you're losing money and going out of business.

All food for thought anyway. Lots of issues with the driverless stuff that need to be sorted out.

[skaredshtles]

The technology does sound amazing. I have to wonder if there are any limitations, i.e. does it work as well in a thick fog? A wicked downpour? Can it still "see" 200 meters in those conditions? What does it "see" exactly? Is it just bouncing signals off shit like a bat so it knows where to go? Is it using Google maps, because although they've gotten much better we all know they still aren't 100% accurate and never will be probably. I really don't even understand how it all works. Probably some combination of all this.

If you really want to go into the fascinating rabbit hole, lookup LIDAR on YouTube or just Google it. It's incredible technology (and not new). And it's not the only tech employed.

But when a driverless Lyft car runs over a few kids in a crosswalk, which you know is going to happen eventually, or some similar emotionally driven occurrence (more so than the pedestrian already killed), then what happens? I suppose Lyft's insurance company will pick up the tab, but who do you blame? Who explains to the parents of the kids that it's okay because statistically the driverless car is safer than one driven by a human? That their kids are just kind of collateral damage in the march toward...something. The future. More money for the corporations. I don't know exactly. I mean does anybody here really MIND driving? I don't mind driving. I think most people like it, maybe not in NYC but most people around the country. So what exactly is the point of all this driverless stuff, other than to make more money for Lyft and Uber and Amazon and maybe FedEx and UPS?

So after the huge outcry about the dead kids, communities will start passing laws that every driverless car needs a "safety person" on board, and basically we're back where we started. And if the ride companies want to stay in business they'll have to charge more for their services--just like a real taxi company. Because what a real old-fashioned taxi costs now is probably what it costs for a reason. Because otherwise you're losing money and going out of business.

All food for thought anyway. Lots of issues with the driverless stuff that need to be sorted out.

Just keep this in mind - HUMANS are running over kids every year. Hell - there were over 6000 pedestrians killed last year by vehicles. Autonomous cars will DECREASE this number dramatically. Mainly because the vehicles will NEVER be distracted voluntarily. They will ALWAYS be paying attention to what they are doing.

Don't let the "I'm afraid of robots" nonsense get in the way of progress.

And if you still doubt the progress of autonomous vehicles, check out these fucking scientists with autonomous RC cars:

[Ted Striker]

Just keep this in mind - HUMANS are running over kids every year. Hell - there were over 6000 pedestrians killed last year by vehicles. Autonomous cars will DECREASE this number dramatically. Mainly because the vehicles will NEVER be distracted voluntarily. They will ALWAYS be paying attention to what they are doing.

Pedestrian deaths are actually up.

The number of pedestrians killed on U.S. roads last year was the highest in 28 years.

[dunfree]

Is anyone arguing that airbnb should build a huge new chain of modern hotels because it'll be vastly profitable? No. So why are people still arguing uber/lyft should spend tens of billions on a fleet of driverless cars to make money? The techs cool, but there's a reason everyones taking their foot off the gas on deploying it as a business.

medallion owners are frustrated because they paid alot for medallions because supply had been restricted through regulatory capture. one of the reasons uber/lyft/airbnb all started in the bay area was demand far exceeded existing (legal) supply.

[skaredshtles]

Pedestrian deaths are actually up.

The number of pedestrians killed on U.S. roads last year was the highest in 28 years.

I'm confused what your point is?

[4matic]

Without autonomous LYFT will never be profitable. They can lose money for a long time but without ability to limit labor costs they will never make money.


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[dunfree]

Without autonomous LYFT will never be profitable. They can lose money for a long time but without ability to limit labor costs they will never make money.

It's not labor cost. It's capital and labor because, after all, the driver is providing himself and the car. Uber's paying under the IRS mileage reimbursement rate, that should point out the labor component of the cost is pretty cheap already and they are still losing money.

[yeahman]

Just keep this in mind - HUMANS are running over kids every year. Hell - there were over 6000 pedestrians killed last year by vehicles. Autonomous cars will DECREASE this number dramatically.

Oh believe me, I'm not saying there's anything logical about it. Kind of like a few people get killed by a terrorist and everybody freaks out and we enact laws and yada yada yada, while we conveniently ignore or just accept all the people dying in car accidents or car/ped accidents or gun violence or what have you. People are emotional and that often drives policy. Not saying driverless won't happen but I don't think it's going to be any time soon.

And what about the day when we have half driverless cars on the road and half people driven cars? How's that going to work? Or like muted said with the casinos, if some places say no driverless cars allowed on their private property, that fucks it all up. Or how about the opposite, suddenly there are places where ONLY driverless cars are allowed and you can't go if you're driving your own car. You're no longer allowed to drive your own car because the government has deemed it less safe. Isn't that where this is really headed if you take the whole "driverless is safer" thing to its logical conclusion? All I'm saying is these are pretty complex questions that really haven't even begun to be seriously discussed from a policy standpoint. So for now, if these ride-hail companies can't make money using real human drivers, I think they're in trouble because driverless isn't going to save them any time soon.

[Ted Striker]

I'm confused what your point is?

That you're right. Most drivers suck, and seem to be getting worse.

Not everything on trg is an argument.*


* only most things.

[Danno]

Not everything on trg is an argument.*

Yes it is.

[Dantheman]

Yes it is.

No it's not!

[dunfree]

Most drivers suck, and seem to be getting worse.

with the proliferation of half-assed driver aids up to and including Tesla's "autopilot" is it a surprise? It's alot easier to drive distracted now because most of the time it doesn't matter; when you really have to pay attention you might not because you've been lulled, and then you might not remember what to do.

[JimmyCarter]

No it's not!

DON'T GIVE ME THAT YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

[4matic]

In thinking the broad market is having a good day because a couple billion has poured out of LYFT. It has to go somewhere


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