The awaited response (long)

**Deep Days** · 05-03-2007, 12:51 AM

Long, but I feel necessarily so.

I’ve been told I should put up a separate thread on this. Glad someone could catch me up on what happened today. I gathered enough to make what I would consider a sufficient response.

First and foremost, Pat, my bitter comments were not meant entirely to personally attack PMGear. Leroy Jenkins was right on point in saying that I was commenting on the bandwagon effect of PMGear in its intimate relationship with TGR, which is something I have definitely noticed in dealing with you and in listening to others regarding PMGear. I realized ex post facto that my post could have been interpreted as a personal attack, but I was pretty much out the door on my way to class at that point, and I was in lab and studying all day, so I didn't check the board (and thus didn't know a response was warranted, as I deem it now). My posts were venting of frustration at having been deceived, but placed inappropriately in a thread that damn well should have remained about boobies. For that I apologize.

I realized also ex post facto that the part of what I said that conveyed my overall frustrations with PMGear should have been sent to you directly. HOWEVER: I feared for the livelihood of my warrantied BROs in that I thought that if I said anything you didn't like, you could continue to "have material issues" (or the like), thus prolonging the wait period for my THIRD pair of BROs indefinitely. You have the power to do that. You have my money and the only reason to make good on your offer is to make yourself feel good as a person, as I don't carry enough weight on TGR to be considered a threat if I'm not treated like the customer I wish to be. So in this case (which seems likely to me), you don't have to make good on your offer because it won't end up hurting you if you don't. If you DO make good on your offer, all it does is cost you another pair of skis and an infinitesimal smidgeon of dignity. This is why my comments are a public matter. In reality, I should have just kept my mouth shut and continued to wait like the little bitch I have been throughout the whole process, (except that now I know what it takes to get my warrantied BROs), but I didn't because I do and say stupid things.
The lack of thanks was somewhat circumstantial. I truly appreciate the generosity of putting us up in the hotel, as you didn't have to do that, but my honest take that week was that I had been lied to a fair amount at that point and that I deserved not to have to pay for the shipping on the extra pair of BROs that would eventually come. The reason I didn’t thank you was because I meant to do so PUBLICLY so that—in keeping with the TGR-PMGear bandwagon mentality—everyone would know how strongly you stand behind your product and what a stand-up guy you are. My computer fucking broke, and the pictures were delayed, so the TR was delayed, and so the thanks was delayed.

The one thing that irked me the most, Pat, was your first phone call to me, which went something like this:
PK "Gosey! Your skis are getting shipped out!"
Gosey: "Sweet! Thanks for the heads up!"
PK: "You ordered stiffs, right?"
Gosey: "Yes, that's correct."
PK: "Alright, let me flex these fuckers to make sure that's what you've got. [pause] Yep, those are stiffs alright!"
Gosey: "Awesome! Thanks, Pat! I'm freakin' psyched!"
PK: "You're very welcome, give me a call to let me know you got them."

They weren’t stiffs. They weren’t what I ordered. I had this confirmed by multiple knowledgeable skiers just to make sure it wasn’t a mental thing. It wasn’t. You promised me another pair--real stiffs this time, oh boy!--when I talked to you a few days later. I commend you for electing to make good on your offer to give me something more similar to what I ordered despite my stupid decision to mount the noodly pair in a fit of frustration. Good on ya for that indeed.

However, in the first phone call, I heard NO MENTION of "Gosey, your skis aren't done yet. We're sending you a loaner blem pair because we know how stoked you are to ski some BROs. Send them back when it's time, and we'll get you the real pair." Shit, man, you didn't even have to do that. All you HAD to do was tell me, "sorry, Gosey, your skis just aren't done yet." I would have been disappointed, but damn sure not nearly as disappointed as receiving the WRONG flex, taken as your interpretation of my skiing ability, which it is most certainly not your place to decide.

Honestly, I still don't believe the skis sitting in my hallway are stiffs. I flexed them side-by-side with Squatch's mojo 90s and his original, iskibc, first pair of BROs, which allegedly flex "somewhere between soft and stiff on the current scale". Both pairs are stiffer than my current pair. It's this fact that pisses me off more than anything--that I'm being deceived on top of the fact that the skis STILL aren't exactly what I want. Asking for a flex that is PERFECT is unrealistic, and that's not what I'm asking for. Asking for a flex that is higher enough in stiffness than the original pair to warrant calling them "stiff" and warrant all the "you really need to be on top of these things" comments isn't. THAT'S WHAT I WANT. I WANT a ski that I need to be on top of so that I can "grow into" it, if you will and so that I can feel comfortable going fast through variable snow. The current skis do that well, but it is my own opinion, which I have formulated through days on snow, that a stiffer ski would do that better. In essence, Squatch was right on point with his V8/V6 analogy. And if the ski kicks my ass, you're welcome to say "I told you so" all the way until the skis completely fall apart.

Pat, I didn't even want to heckle you, and I damn sure don't need you to suck my dick. Tell me when they're gonna be here, and send them then. You'll hear nothing else from me until then. I have been raised on the notion that being pro-active (i.e., contacting you to let you know that it hasn't gone unnoticed that my skis are now 8 weeks overdue) is much more effective in getting done what I want done than sitting around and waiting for something to happen. That's why you heard so many emails from me: I was stoked as fuck to ski these "amazing skis" everyone keeps talking about, and I didn't want to wait any longer than I had to. Hell, I didn't even have the sack to ask you, "Hey, Pat, what position am I in line" because I was scared that doing so would change that position in line. As I said, you have the power to do that.

Stephan Drake and Rob Liberman have a little of that power, too. The difference is: I asked them a question, and if they didn't know the answer, they straight up told me "we don't know. We HOPE xyz, but that could very well be completely off base, so DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP." In the end, it tended to be about xyz. I ordered my DPs in November, I think, and they estimated a Jan. 15 delivery. As soon as they found out, they sent me an email notifying me of a delay, and they adjusted that date to Feb. 10. I got my skis about Feb. 12.

The bottom line is, Pat, you guys make a pretty damn good product. You have had some issues with durability, which, in dealing with DP I have found out IS kinda the norm for small ski companies (it takes a LOT of pairs of skis to get it perfect, and you just don't have the manpower or funds to produce enough skis to make every pair perfect). And that's fine. And some of the generosity I've been afforded (the free T-shirt with funny message to my sister, batch of stickers, free hotel room, second pair of BROs without questions asked, potential third pair of BROs without questions asked, etc., etc., etc...) is dumbfounding. But FUCK ME are you sketchy with the information you've provided to me. None of the free shit you can give me is worth being lied to MULTIPLE times. And maybe I'm not being lied to, and the initial deception with the first pair of BROs has slighted me that way--I hope that's the truth. But in my dealings with PMGear, I have come to doubt that I'm wrong.

You have an email coming in about the warranty issue. Know this: ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TELL ME WHAT IT TOOK TO GET MY WARRANTIED PAIR, AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE. (That is, JUST TELL ME TO SEND MY CURRENT PAIR, and I will. As soon as I get the binders off). All along, all I wanted was just what I ordered: a pair of 179 PMGear BRO Models in a stiff flex. Now I don't even want that much. Frankly, I'd rather my money back so I don't have to risk going through this again. Resolution of that issue is between you and me, Pat, and not for the members of the board.

I'm sorry this had to blow up as it did. I hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

As far as asandygal: I believe my EMT cert. gives me the knowledge to medically examine the head of anyone who qualifies that woman as anything but pretty damn hot. Aaron's a lucky dude.

Sorry for one of the more historic hijacks of late...

**dk_alaskan** · 05-03-2007, 12:54 AM

are there Cliff notes for this novela available?

**Phill** · 05-03-2007, 12:59 AM

Two thumbs up for actually having the balls to post this.

**SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING MORON** · 05-03-2007, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by dk_alaskan

are there Cliff notes for this novela available?

Of course!!!!

It goes like this:

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING MORON!!!!

**backpack** · 05-03-2007, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by dk_alaskan

are there Cliff notes for this novela available?

There was a slight overreaction to the "bandwagon" post.

Gosey still wants stiff bros.

Fin.

**doublediamond223** · 05-03-2007, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Phill

Two thumbs up for actually having the balls to post this.

Agreed.

12345

**dk_alaskan** · 05-03-2007, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by backpack

There was a slight overreaction to the "bandwagon" post.

Gosey still wants stiff bros.

Fin.

being a smart ass, was only off by 5 letters. nice response btw Max, well reasoned and thought out.

**squirrelmurphy** · 05-03-2007, 01:10 AM

so you didn't tell pat exactly what you wanted to happen, and he never bothered to ask. a shitty situation. hopefully pat can find you a blem pair of 179 stiffs that are actually stiff (and not badly blemmed) and he can sell whatever mid-softs you're on now to recoup some of the losses.

**Phill** · 05-03-2007, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by squirrelmurphy

so you didn't tell pat exactly what you wanted to happen, and he never bothered to ask. a shitty situation. hopefully pat can find you a blem pair of 179 stiffs that are actually stiff (and not badly blemmed) and he can sell whatever mid-softs you're on now to recoup some of the losses.

Just my personal opinion but I think Max should get non-blemmed stiff 179 bros, its what he paid for afterall.

**squirrelmurphy** · 05-03-2007, 01:14 AM

yeah, i'm conflicted on that. i guess if splat knowingly sent him softs and told him they were stiffs, gosey gets a new pair of un-blemmed stiffs.

**summit** · 05-03-2007, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by squirrelmurphy

so you didn't tell pat exactly what you wanted to happen, and he never bothered to ask. a shitty situation. hopefully pat can find you a blem pair of 179 stiffs that are actually stiff (and not badly blemmed) and he can sell whatever mid-softs you're on now to recoup some of the losses.

he ordered stiff bros and returned the soft bros he received...

seems pretty clear that he wanted stiff bros

**JTrue** · 05-03-2007, 01:16 AM

I got super stiff(s), the gf loves them and it

**Tectonically_Neglected** · 05-03-2007, 01:19 AM

Wow, I would now like to see the 'bandwagon post'.

I am clueless here. WTF? Maybe I shouldn't stop 'working' so I can keep on checking TGR?

**summit** · 05-03-2007, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by dk_alaskan

are there Cliff notes for this novela available?

CLIFF NOTES

Gosey didn't intend to directly attack pat

Gosey orders stiff bros

Gosey waits a long time and repeatedly lied to about delivery dates

Gosey finally recieves skis, but not the ones he ordered. they are soft and blemmed

Gosey is given the "opportunity" to drive several states away in order to return his skis and get new stiffs.

The new skis he is given are also not stiffs and were, as we have come to find out, of sub-part cosntruction and Pat KNEW IT at the time.

Sub-par skis begin to fall apart. Gosey is told he can warranty but isn't told when to expect the replacements.

Much later (today), Pat tells Gosey in a flame that he has to send in his current skis to get them warrantied. When will he will receive them is unclear.

Gosey still wants stiff bros.

**JTrue** · 05-03-2007, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tectonically_Neglected

Wow, I would now like to see the 'bandwagon post'.

I am clueless here. WTF? Maybe I shouldn't stop 'working' so I can keep on checking TGR?

All you need to know is that PMGEAR is the awesomest company Ever. Run along little dun dun.

**Singel** · 05-03-2007, 01:23 AM

Hopefully Splat makes an equally well thought out reply and we'll all be singing Kumbaya by the fire again tomorrow morning.

Sounds like this all comes down to flex. As we've seen from Endre's tables sometimes handflexing can seem to be misleading, not sure if this came into play on either end here or perhaps it was simply a lemon pair of bros...

Today started out with such promise: a semi topless ski modeling pic thread followed by a topless ski modeling pic thread. It was impressive to watch how quickly the collective managed to repeatedly nuke something so much potential for greatness!

**Deep Days** · 05-03-2007, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Singel

Hopefully Splat makes an equally well thought out reply and we'll all be singing Kumbaya by the fire again tomorrow morning.

Sounds like this all comes down to flex. As we've seen from Endre's tables sometimes handflexing can seem to be misleading, not sure if this came into play on either end here or perhaps it was simply a lemon pair of bros...

Fundamentally yes. If there wasn't an initial problem with the flex, no issues would have been had. The reason for the proliferation of the bitterness, however, has more to do with lack of clarity and/or dishonesty (exactly what it is is unclear at this point) in delievery times than with the flex problem. It should be noted that the two pairs of stiffer BROs by which I have set my benchmark are 188s. However, in a side-by-side handflex of Baxter's 179 softs, I didn't notice much of a difference between her skis and mine, leading me to believe that the true 179 stiffs are much stiffer than what I've got--i.e., I still don't have what I paid for. In addition, my flex 2 Lotuses (by almost no standards a beefy ski), which have a fairly soft tail, are still stiffer (both by handflex and in skiing on them) than my skis. The summary is that they don't flex or ski nearly as stiff as I expected "stiff" BROs to ski.

**Tectonically_Neglected** · 05-03-2007, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by JTrue

All you need to know is that PMGEAR is the awesomest company Ever. Run along little dun dun.

Gee wiz! Thanks...

------------------------
[Urban dictionary]
2. Dun

Dun simply means "son". Originally started from a handicaped kid in Queens, NY. He couldn't pronounce son, so everytime he said son, it sounded more like dun.
[/Urban dictionary]
------------------------

Sorry to hear about your handicap. I would diagnose it as being:

------------------------
[urban dictionary]
1. stuck up

person or animal who thinks they are above the rest, but who should really take a dose of their own shit.
[/u d]
------------------------

Hope you get over it...

**P_McPoser** · 05-03-2007, 01:43 AM

Look around the forum you'll figure out what's going on.

Originally Posted by Tectonically_Neglected

Gee wiz! Thanks...

------------------------
[Urban dictionary]
2. Dun

Dun simply means "son". Originally started from a handicaped kid in Queens, NY. He couldn't pronounce son, so everytime he said son, it sounded more like dun.
[/Urban dictionary]
------------------------

Sorry to hear about your handicap. I would diagnose it as being:

------------------------
[urban dictionary]
1. stuck up

person or animal who thinks they are above the rest, but who should really take a dose of their own shit.
[/u d]
------------------------

Hope you get over it...

**MTT** · 05-03-2007, 01:46 AM

Deep Days

I wonder what flex you do have. I have this year 179 Stiffs they are really not that stiff. But they ski stiff. They are soft in the tip and tail but stiff though the middle 2/3 of the ski. When I grab the tip of the ski and push the middle of the ski they bend pretty easy but its all tip and tail.

Regardless there does appear to be a gap between you and PM Gear. I can't help but think this will be resolved at some point in the future.

I think PM Gear has had a tough year and we just saw some frustration get the better of some. I think Pat has tried to do the best he could for you and everyone else. It your case all he could has fallen short.

I like your post and am impressed that you still want to ski the Bro.

**Deep Days** · 05-03-2007, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tectonically_Neglected

Gee wiz! Thanks...

------------------------
[Urban dictionary]
2. Dun

Dun simply means "son". Originally started from a handicaped kid in Queens, NY. He couldn't pronounce son, so everytime he said son, it sounded more like dun.
[/Urban dictionary]
------------------------

Sorry to hear about your handicap. I would diagnose it as being:

------------------------
[urban dictionary]
1. stuck up

person or animal who thinks they are above the rest, but who should really take a dose of their own shit.
[/u d]
------------------------

Hope you get over it...

Hey, TN. Here's another cross-reference for you.

Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary

sarcasm:

A tongue of which the user speaks of something the complete opposite of what the user means. It often has the best comedic value.

Ex. 1: "I'm okay. Don't mind the gaping wound and the sword protruding from my back. I'm fine. Feel like a million fucking bucks, dammit."

MTT: I believe yours was actually one of the reviews that led me to believe the stiff was pretty burly. I really don't feel that way about my current pair, and I would imagine you are a significantly better skier than I.

By the way, I've gotten a couple "pat on the back" PMs. I don't need them, just as I don't need the personal attack PMs. I know what I said and I know why I said it. I don't need or really want anyone else's input except for that of Pat or people who have technical information about the skis. "Good job, Max!" or "You're such a douche, Max, I can't believe you said that to Pat and PMGear!" won't change anything, so just please save me the few clicks of my mouse.

FKNA, I'm going to bed. I'm going skiing in 5 hours. That IS why we're here after all, isn't it? Not just because we like flame wars?

**MTT** · 05-03-2007, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by Deep Days

Hey, TN. Here's another cross-reference for you.

MTT: I believe yours was actually one of the reviews that led me to believe the stiff was pretty burly. I really don't feel that way about my current pair, and I would imagine you are a significantly better skier than I.

I don't know about the skiing ablility but I Outweigh you by 50lbs

I just went and read the review I posed about the 179 Stiffs. 4 months later and I would not change a word. So there is an accurate flex reference there.

**ski_trader** · 05-03-2007, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Deep Days

Long, but I feel necessarily so.
.

I dont know anything about bros, pmgear etc. but it is good to speak up in an educated and thought out manner and not be intimidated by the mob, whatever your issue may be. all the wise-asses who spend half their days posting unfunny sarcastic zingers on here would probably just seethe quietly if they were in your position.

**philippeR** · 05-03-2007, 03:45 AM

Nice post.

**splat** · 05-03-2007, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Summit

CLIFF NOTES

Gosey didn't intend to directly attack pat

Gosey orders stiff bros

Gosey waits a long time and repeatedly lied to about delivery dates

Gosey finally recieves skis, but not the ones he ordered. they are soft and blemmed

Gosey is given the "opportunity" to drive several states away in order to return his skis and get new stiffs.

The new skis he is given are also not stiffs and were, as we have come to find out, of sub-part cosntruction and Pat KNEW IT at the time.

Sub-par skis begin to fall apart. Gosey is told he can warranty but isn't told when to expect the replacements.

Much later (today), Pat tells Gosey in a flame that he has to send in his current skis to get them warrantied. When will he will receive them is unclear.

Gosey still wants stiff bros.

Well, it's nice to see you continue to bullshit your way through another episode in your never-ending flames against me because you know I know what you are, Summit.

Just to point out some of Summit's bullshit :

Gosey is given the "opportunity" to drive several states away in order to return his skis and get new stiffs.

REALITY:
Gosey was already coming to ski Tahoe and I busted ass to make sure he got his skis while he was around.

The new skis he is given are also not stiffs and were, as we have come to find out, of sub-part cosntruction and Pat KNEW IT at the time.

REALITY:
Max chose them from a pile of skis at Bobos that were in the shop for stonegrinding. I wasn't there. I didn't hand them to him. For some reason, it appeared he was avoiding me. He called me from the shop. I asked him if he was happy with the flex and he said he was. Had he taken the time to drop by the factory, I would have looked them over closely for potential defects and, if there was any indication they might delam, I would have made sure he got a different ski. I think he was little woried that I'd be upset he trashed the loaners I'd given him.

I have said Gosey's skis had an inferior material that might delam. It's the same material the pair asandygal has in the skis she was pictured with and that pair has been consistently skied since October. So to assert that I 'KNEW it' and to emphasize that I KNEW they'd delam is just a bit over the top, given that many of those skis are being skied today and have been skied all winter. Such a statement might serve Summit's agenda, but I think it gets quite obvious that Summit's motivations aren't to defend Max, but rather to stretch the truth in an overzealous attempt to try to attack me. I guess it's Summit's way of thinking ' I'll just blow everything out of proportion because pat never responds to anything I say.' Summit's been butthurt that I don't like him for years. And he'll capitalize on any opportunity to blow things out of proportion to gain some sense of power. Normally I just keep him on ignore, but his blowhard bullshit got a bit thick, so I'll address it and let him keep posting.

This has been nothing short of a comical crusade by the two butthurt chief fucktards of Summit County to discredit me and PM Gear all night long, regardless of any claims they might make to the contrary. They've done it before and they'll do it again. They have a singular agenda against me. They just needed something to hitch it to. A couple weirdo internet stalkers, nothing more. I'm sure they'll stew about me for the rest of their lives. I've been kicking back and watching them wear their fingers out typing like the madmen they are, alii and all. They are still the same psycho fucktard sociopathic losers they've always been. Best o' luck with that, guys. If you think you are drawing me out to spar, you're not. I'll make a conscious decison when I choose to respond and expose you for what you are. Hey, who knows, maybe the Villiage Idiot will threaten to beat me up again.

As is obvious in my response to Summit, I don't cotton much to bullshit. Since I was a maggot long before I was heading up PM Gear, I'll choose to respond as a maggot, rather than having to live up to any internet blowhard's expectations of how a ski company exec should act. For all your alii who profess a ski company person should act stuffed suit properly dignified on TGR - they're everywhere. Go buy your skis from them, then come back here and bitch about the stuffed suits.

Max, I think you and I can work things out. Glad to see you steppin up and posting a response. I'm sure we both learned something. I've always tried to cut you slack, but felt you were throwing backhanded insults at me. I let it slide the first time, but the second time around, it made me mad. I'll apologize here for what I said. It wasn't right. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong and that was wrong. But your insinuation that I was being dishonest is wrong as well. Stretched, overworked, harried, and overly-optimistic? You bet. I've never mentioned that you totally trashed the loaners I gave him until it looked like you were spoiling for trouble here. There isn't a shop or demo van I know of that doesn't charge for damage like that. Combined with your reluctance to meet with me while you were at the hotel I got you a room at, I felt a bit deceived and taken advantage of as well. Think about it.

I'll give you a call and we'll talk. Things have a way of working out. But the fucktard twins and their multiple alii had nothing to do with me responding, other than to expose them them for what they are. I was just waiting for you to post.