Whitewater canoes

**DamRepublican** · 04-18-2007, 08:52 PM

I love to canoe, been doing it all my life, my dad used to have a whitewater canoe but from what I remember he sucked ass. I want to get into whitewater canoeing because last spring I damned near ripped my old town discovery in half on the blackfoot during highwater. I didnt go down but the canoe bent more than it should when I went through tibideau (sp?) anyways I hate emptying the water out when nosing off one wave into the next. Any suggestions on whitewater canoes for a beginner (whitewater canoeist). And no, I dont want a damn kayak, I like canoes better, you can put more shit in them. And any tips on paddling them.

**Storm11** · 04-19-2007, 09:50 AM

Look into MadRiver canoes...pretty much the leader in WW canoes at the moment. A few things to look for are:

1. how much rocker the boat has. The more rocker, the more maneuverable it will be. Less rocker will track better, but you'll have a much harder time turning it.

2. Width of the boat - obviously the more surface area on the bottom of the boat, the more stable it will be, but also slower than a skinnier boat.

3. What kind of material it is built out of - the more durable the better, but obviously you're going to pay for it.

4. BUY FLOAT BAGS... should go without saying, but you wouldn't believe how many canoes I've seen/had to help extract from the local town run because dumb kids think they can get them down river even if they 1. have no float bags and/or 2. have a lake canoe.

**kayaktheworld** · 04-19-2007, 10:03 AM

You should use this as an oppurtunity to ditch open boating and go to closed C1. I think the Open Canoe has to be one of the most awkward ways you could possibly navigate a river...

**wannabe** · 04-19-2007, 10:09 AM

Dam Republican,

As Storm mentioned get float bags they will displace lots of water but sorry to say you will still be taking on water and have to bail often just not as much.

Which canoe depends on what kind of water you will be runinng, for class 2-3 the old town appalachian is a good boat, that will still handle lakes.

If you want a whitewater specific boat I would look into Bell Canoes.

Is your discovery trashed or were you able to bend it back. That is a super durable boat and the plastic has great memory so often you can heat it up with a hair dryer or even set it outside on a hot sunny day and pop it back to it's original shape.

PM me if you have any other questions regarding your discovery.

**Tye 1on** · 04-19-2007, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by kayaktheworld

You should use this as an oppurtunity to ditch open boating and go to closed C1. I think the Open Canoe has to be one of the most awkward ways you could possible navigate a river...

There were some great OLD C1's, the closed kind. Dagger was the leader at the time, putting canoe saddles in the Response and other big kayaks. There were a couple C1'ers in bozo back then, ya might check in with Mike Garcia at Northern Lights, he may have something kickin around...

**squeakleaf** · 04-19-2007, 06:42 PM

Check out http://www.cboats.net/ it's basically the only real source for Cboat info on the web. There is a section on the forum for buying used boats, which might be a great place to find a beginner boat.

Some of the better companies currently producing OC's are Esquif and Phyrana, if you looking to get into serious whitewater these are the only two companies making OC's out of plastic similar to the stuff whitewater kayaks are made of.

There are other companies out there like Bell, Mad River and Old Town, but they make their boats out of Roylex or a variation of it. This stuff is pretty good, but just can't handle serious abuse.

The other option is to buy a kayak and convert it to a C1. There are only a very few actual closed deck boats designed specifically as C1's, so it is usually cheaper and easier to buy a kayak and tear the seat out.

You should use this as an opportunity to ditch open boating and go to closed C1. I think the Open Canoe has to be one of the most awkward ways you could possibly navigate a river...

As for that, OC definitely has some limitations, but it's sort of like telemarking, while it may not be as good at everything, there are definitely some things it excels at. Boofing in a OC is one of the funnest things ever, with so much length, rocker and flotation you can clear some serious stuff. Plus as a canoeist you can switch back and forth between closed deck C1's and Open Canoes depending on what you feel like.

The only thing I've got to say is that if you are really interested in getting into OC whitewater, look at getting an electric bilge pump. It's possibly the best thing I ever did. With my setup I can roll up and be totally empty in about 30 seconds. I'll never go back to manual bailing.

**DamRepublican** · 04-19-2007, 08:24 PM

thanks for the great advice, the discovery popped back when I got to shore and got out with seemingly no major damage maybe some cosmetic though, I think I want to go with an open canoe and will look into an electric bilge, I think the mad river outrage might be my best bet as I read it is more forgiving, am I right to think this? Also can you roll a ww canoe like a kayak or no just bail and get back in?

**Andy_B** · 04-20-2007, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by DamRepublican

Also can you roll a ww canoe like a kayak or no just bail and get back in?

Roll an open, no problem. The move is a little different than a kayak roll but has the same basic mechanics. You still come up swamped, but you're not swimming.

Also get a floating bow/stern line.

Check out some of the older dagger stuff too, like the Phantom, Ocoee.

The Phantom is money in fast water.

**kayaktheworld** · 04-20-2007, 05:50 AM

Get one of these...http://www.jacksonkayak.com/articles...icle=200704183.

**Storm11** · 04-20-2007, 09:33 AM

Didn't one of the major kayak companies used to make something similar to that Jackson proto? Prijon maybe?

There used to be a guy here in Durango who C-1'd in a one of those old Wavesport Transformers. He would go HUGE in that thing! Haven't seen him around in ages though.

**Andy_B** · 04-20-2007, 09:43 AM

Dagger Aftershock maybe?

**Storm11** · 04-20-2007, 10:22 AM

Nah, it had a raised cockpit, like the jackson

**kayaktheworld** · 04-20-2007, 10:32 AM

Might have been a Spanish Flie...

I saw Jeremy Lauks, the US OC1 representative at the World Championships this may, out in a Freestyle OC1 on the New River Dries the other day but I forget what it was called.

All I can say is that I want to see footy of him riding that thing on Bus Eater in 2 weeks...

**DamRepublican** · 04-20-2007, 07:00 PM

those freestyle OC1s are not what I would consider a 'canoe' by any traditional standards, like the jackson article said, it is a modified kayak. Not my cup of tea, I want a canoe, if I wanted a kayak I'd buy one, they're usually cheaper anyways, but I dont, although that video is cool

**Crass3000** · 04-20-2007, 09:59 PM

Seems like everyone is posting pictures that at least look like kayaks. I have seen a guy and his son heading down the river with some sort of canvas top on a canoe for whitewater. Has anybody ever heard or seen this? I have never seen it since but thats what I picture when I think of a whitewater canoe setup -- granted I don't have much whitewater experience.

**Dipshit Liberal** · 04-21-2007, 03:00 PM

WHY WOULD ANYONE PADDLE WHITEWATER WITH A CANOE??

**DamRepublican** · 04-21-2007, 04:07 PM

half the paddle = twice the man

**kayaktheworld** · 04-21-2007, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dipshit Liberal

WHY WOULD ANYONE PADDLE WHITEWATER WITH A CANOE??

Perhaps they feel a need to paddle an inferior and awkard craft on the river?

Or, maybe they enjoy bailing water out of their boats every 5 minutes.

**chrismo720** · 04-21-2007, 08:14 PM

Well I myself have never done it but my "mentor" has a whitewater canoe and he says its great fun, so I wouldnt knock it till' ya tried it.

**lazaruslong1108** · 04-21-2007, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by kayaktheworld

Might have been a Spanish Flie...

I think you mean the blackfly.

it looks pretty sick

**refried** · 04-22-2007, 09:12 AM

the Spanish Fly was made by Pyranha it was a whitewater playboat (basically a kayak), the Prelude was a more conventional ww canoe with lots of rocker. the Shue fly (or Black Fly is the smallest ww canoe made) is made down south, and only a playboat.

http://www.pyranha.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=34

**birdboatboy** · 04-22-2007, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by kayaktheworld

Perhaps they feel a need to paddle an inferior and awkard craft on the river?

Or, maybe they enjoy bailing water out of their boats every 5 minutes.

Expedition canoeing in a Dagger Venture 17 (or similar) allows you to explore some truly amazing river systems that can't really be reached by kayak. We're talking true Canadian whitewater on extended wilderness trips, like the Seal River.

That said, a kayak seems to be a good option for most easily accessible whitewater rivers.