Running, Anyone...?

[Tech Tonics]

The last few months I've been running more than ever before. 4-5 days / week (30-35 miles /week). All on trails. Most of my runs are 5-7 miles long with usually one longer run 10-12 miles. Pretty steep ups and downs with most runs having at least 800' of vertical.

Totally stoked on it.

I have no idea what I'm doing though. Which, I suppose, is part of the joy--I just go run.

But is there a resource for some kind of guidance to improve? I'm doing a 1/2 trail marathon in a few weeks, the distance doesn't bother me as I've done a few 13+ mile runs already. But, I'd like to progress to ultras someday

Should I run more often? Or less often longer miles? Should I do short and fast runs occassionally? Mix in weight training? How often? How many miles should I run before attempting a trail marathon? Why do I need a heart rate monitor? Etc etc etc.

[bean]

^ Run more miles per week, however that happens. Try to make one run "long" compared to the rest.

Don't worry about ultras now, stick to short distances and working on speed. Once you go long you'll be slow forever.

[::: :::]

The last few months I've been running more than ever before. 4-5 days / week (30-35 miles /week). All on trails. Most of my runs are 5-7 miles long with usually one longer run 10-12 miles. Pretty steep ups and downs with most runs having at least 800' of vertical.

Totally stoked on it.

I have no idea what I'm doing though. Which, I suppose, is part of the joy--I just go run.

But is there a resource for some kind of guidance to improve? I'm doing a 1/2 trail marathon in a few weeks, the distance doesn't bother me as I've done a few 13+ mile runs already. But, I'd like to progress to ultras someday

Should I run more often? Or less often longer miles? Should I do short and fast runs occassionally? Mix in weight training? How often? How many miles should I run before attempting a trail marathon? Why do I need a heart rate monitor? Etc etc etc.

unless you're wanting to race and podium, keep doing what you're doing

if you are here

Totally stoked on it.

..

part of the joy--I just go run.

that's as good as it gets IMHO





back when I was doing triathlons, i used this book and was able to get faster (caveat: you need a decent base so that you don't injure yourself, but it sounds like you have that)
http://www.amazon.com/Runners-World-.../dp/159486649X

also look at jack daniels
http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Runnin.../dp/1450431836

[hutash]

^^^This.

Lost of great training techniques out there, some really good coaching, tons of on-line resources, running clubs, but unless you are really serious about fast time, being ultra competitive, just run and enjoy. Too much "training" sucks the fun out quickly and makes it work. As I have said before, one of my favorite training techniques is to run to a pub, drink a few pints and run home. Not the best way to train, but a hell of a lot more enjoyable (especially if you run to micro-brew pubs.)

[OldLarry]

Ran my second 20 of 4 20+ milers last weekend for this years nyc and didn't bonk so pretty happy with that. Too much time on planes and trains does more damage to me than running itself. Just focusing on keeping up the milage wuthoufb getting hurt before the taper in about a month-

[Cruiser]

That's a long way to run Larry. Keep it up mang!

BTW, what'r you doing for water on runs of that length? Carrying it all with you? Or do you have someplace along the way that you can top off your bottles?

[Doremite]

^ I live in an urban area so usually just jog up to a convenience store, trot down the aisle, and run away w a $1 bottle. No one has chased me yet.

[topwater]

What're your thoughts on vest sizing from UD? I'm at the high end of medium/small end of large, and I've read comments that "medium is huge" and "medium is tiny" and have no idea which way to go other than trying to find a shop that carries them.

I would go with the medium. IMO, you don't want to have the bottles too close together with no way to tighten the straps.

[OldLarry]

That's a long way to run Larry. Keep it up mang!

BTW, what'r you doing for water on runs of that length? Carrying it all with you? Or do you have someplace along the way that you can top off your bottles?

Thanks! I have one a them belts with 3 or 4 bottles on it. Gets a little sloshy so I do an out and back route and stashed them on the way out...

[bagtagley]

that's as good as it gets IMHO

Agreed. Unless you really have a need to be competitive, just keep enjoying yourself. Gradually increase the mileage on your long run and don't overthink it.

[Dantheman]

But is there a resource for some kind of guidance to improve? I'm doing a 1/2 trail marathon in a few weeks, the distance doesn't bother me as I've done a few 13+ mile runs already. But, I'd like to progress to ultras someday

Should I run more often? Or less often longer miles? Should I do short and fast runs occassionally? Mix in weight training? How often? How many miles should I run before attempting a trail marathon? Why do I need a heart rate monitor? Etc etc etc.

Gold standard for getting faster is the Maffetone method http://content.bandzoogle.com/users/..._Down_2007.pdf

Caveat to that is there is a certain minimum time/mileage commitment required for it to work, and your sprint speed and strength/power are likely to suffer (at least temporarily. This is a great article series that goes into some depth about the fundamentals of endurance training http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tra...g-part-1.html/ He breaks down why Maffetone-type methods works best, but also why they are not ideal for everyone (i.e. people without sufficient free time for it to be effective, athletes who need endurance but can't sacrifice sprint speed and anaerobic power such as soccer and rugby players). He also offers up some basic training templates for all those scenarios.

You should be doing at least some weight training and sprinting. It will have benefits to your running, but moreso it's simply critical to your long-term health, vitality and general athletic ability (IMVHO).

[OldLarry]

Agreed. Unless you really have a need to be competitive, just keep enjoying yourself. Gradually increase the mileage on your long run and don't overthink it.

+1

[Cruiser]

Got out for really nice run this morning along the highline and the weather was so right. Perfectly sunny at like 62* and a light breeze blowing just enough to keep the sweat evaporating really efficiently. It was one of those runs where the miles just flew by effortlessly. The first few trees and shrubs were beginning to turn and the air had that smell that you just instinctively associate with autumn.

[sirbumpsalot]

I disagree on the speed decreasing as your focus on long-slow endurance building. The more I run slowly, the faster I get at all distances.

As Maffetone, Pfitz, Lydiard explain, any distance over a mile involves endurance...so if it maintain your speed with 1-2 weekly short workouts of <10% of your total weekly mileage, the endurance component allows you to extend that speed for a longer time/distance even though it composes 90% of your weekly mileage.

90% of my weekly mileage at a pace 40-75 seconds SLOWER than my marathon pace. Once a week or so I run 3-6 miles at a tempo pace that is a minute slower than my 5K pace and 45 seconds slower than my 10K pace. I never come near those paces outside of a race.

Magically I can still hit those paces at those distances despite never training close to them.

The caveat however is that you can't just run SLOOOOW....you have to run SLOW within your target heart range.

[fool]

The last few months I've been running more than ever before. 4-5 days / week (30-35 miles /week). All on trails. Most of my runs are 5-7 miles long with usually one longer run 10-12 miles. Pretty steep ups and downs with most runs having at least 800' of vertical.

Totally stoked on it.

I have no idea what I'm doing though. Which, I suppose, is part of the joy--I just go run.

But is there a resource for some kind of guidance to improve? I'm doing a 1/2 trail marathon in a few weeks, the distance doesn't bother me as I've done a few 13+ mile runs already. But, I'd like to progress to ultras someday

Should I run more often? Or less often longer miles? Should I do short and fast runs occassionally? Mix in weight training? How often? How many miles should I run before attempting a trail marathon? Why do I need a heart rate monitor? Etc etc etc.

For a great trail/ultra resource, look here: http://www.amazon.com/Relentless-For...ogress+forward . It's the editor of iRunFar's website and a great compilation of info. Highly recommended, especially if you're looking for the ultra distances down the road.

[fool]

Tapwater are you still doing RRR 50 tomorrow? If so, good luck! Wish I could be there, life and grad school applications simply got the best of me the last few months.

For anyone wanting to nerd out on RRR100, tracker is here: http://www.hallucinationsports.com/e...:1442632777952

Oh, and I'm jealous, Cruiser! Definitely would love to be enjoying the Colorado fall right now!

[topwater]

Tapwater are you still doing RRR 50 tomorrow? If so, good luck! Wish I could be there, life and grad school applications simply got the best of me the last few months.

For anyone wanting to nerd out on RRR100, tracker is here: http://www.hallucinationsports.com/e...:1442632777952

Oh, and I'm jealous, Cruiser! Definitely would love to be enjoying the Colorado fall right now!

Leaving for the start in about 15 minutes. Weather looks to be perfect today although the first real cold morning of the fall. Should be in the 50's and sunny up in the hills this afternoon. Much better than the tortoises in the hundred yesterday morning getting snowed on first thing in the morning on the way up Mt. Werner. Yesterday's sunshine should have dried out the trails from the rain the past few days.

From the live tracking we should definitely see the frontrunners in the 100 coming at from around Mt Werner to Long Lake.

[goldenshowers]

If you hurry to Golden you can still make the two stages, Sweat and Tears.

Blood was last night, 5km length, 1000m vertical up, 0m vertical down. Or you can always start training for next year?

http://www.goldenultra.com

[Cruiser]

I got a little bit of a late start yesterday morning but still managed about 2 hours along the highline trail. But on my way back to the house things had really begun to warm up and I was sweating a good bit. I kind of felt like I would have benefited from a little pick-me-up around mile 10 or so but all I had with me was water.

So, when you all are out for a couple of hours (or more), are you taking anything along for a little burst of energy (and electrolytes) when you feel like you're starting to get slower? I carry a little Nathan belt that has 2 water bottles and a very small pocket for my phone but I think I could fit a couple of pouches of Gu or similar in there. I'd kind of prefer not to do a sports drink in one of my bottles and would like to avoid caffeine for the most part. Anyone have suggestions?

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Gu works for me for running and ski touring.

[GeezerSteve]

If you're fuel-crashing on a sub-4 hour run, consider training your body to burn body fat. Start by avoiding naked carbs before the run, e.g., if you must eat pre-run, try dipping some tortillas in olive oil. The olive oil will help keep your blood sugar flat and allow your body to burn body fat.

What fuel, if any, works for you during a run depends your individual physiology. I dislike Gu, which in most people invites an insulin surge/crash cycle, thus often leading to the "Gu conundrum," a term coined by my MD ski touring/ultrarunning/mountaineering bud, to describe our buds when they eat Gu, are fine for 15 minutes, then crash worse then before, then eat Gu for a short burst, then crash, etc., etc., etc.

Gu is old tech. New tech fuels have amino acids, which helps keep blood sugar flat. My favorite is Succeed Amino. Some people like Hammer Perpetuem. But none of those should be necessary on a 2-hour run.

I trained my body to burn body fat when I was a young (and quite lean) man, bicycling 10,000+ miles/year. I never eat, nor have the urge to eat, on a sub-4 hour run. I typically do not eat anything during a 50K ultra, except to calm my stomach or to have something to do while I'm visiting fellow ultrarunners at the aid station.

[sirbumpsalot]

Unless you have trouble digesting while running or plan to run an unsupported marathon or ultra marathon where no caloric intake is readily available, there is no advantage or reason to train yourself to starve on a run.

[Cruiser]

Yeah, I was mostly just looking for a lazy guy way to perk myself up when I start to get a bit listless after an hour and a half or so of running on the flatish trails near my house. But I guess, in reality, my best course of action would be to stop being a whiny little bitch and just push through it.

Will have a look at the Succeed and Hammer stuff though. FWIW, I tried Clif Shot Blocks during the last 2ish hours of a ~6hr out and back a couple of weeks ago and they did give me a nice little burst. But I could definitely tell when each little sugary rush began to wear off.

[Dantheman]

Gu is old tech. New tech fuels have amino acids, which helps keep blood sugar flat. My favorite is Succeed Amino. Some people like Hammer Perpetuem. But none of those should be necessary on a 2-hour run.

All the calories in Amino and Perpetuem come from maltodextrin, same as Gu. The aminos are there to prevent muscle catabolism during longer efforts, they have zero effect on insulin and blood sugar response AFAIK. Gu makes products with aminos equivalent to Amino/Perpetuem.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Regular Gu has is advertised as having aminos while Gu Rocktane has more. I don't pretend to know why that should matter.