Running, Anyone...?

[Dantheman]

I got a little bit of a late start yesterday morning but still managed about 2 hours along the highline trail. But on my way back to the house things had really begun to warm up and I was sweating a good bit. I kind of felt like I would have benefited from a little pick-me-up around mile 10 or so but all I had with me was water.

So, when you all are out for a couple of hours (or more), are you taking anything along for a little burst of energy (and electrolytes) when you feel like you're starting to get slower? I carry a little Nathan belt that has 2 water bottles and a very small pocket for my phone but I think I could fit a couple of pouches of Gu or similar in there. I'd kind of prefer not to do a sports drink in one of my bottles and would like to avoid caffeine for the most part. Anyone have suggestions?

You shouldn't need any food on a run that length. Electrolytes maybe if it's hot enough, but definitely no food. Here's Endurance Nutrition 101:

Depending on bodyweight, pace, and individual neuromuscular efficiency, most people will burn 600-800 calories per hour during endurance exercise, but can only digest about 200 cal/hr at most. What that means is that endurance exercise is a calorie deficit activity. Thankfully, your body fat is a massive energy reservoir. For the sake of easy math, let's say you are a small, lean individual weighing 150 lbs and 10% body fat (15 pounds of body fat). About one-third that body fat (BF) is not bioavailable because if BF gets too low you die. So, you have 10 lbs of available BF to draw upon for energy, or roughly 35,000 total calories at 3,500 cals/lb. That is a shitload of energy, and we're talking a very lean 10% BF individual. Even someone mildly overweight has tens of thousands more calories on them.

The catch is that your BF can only be released and metabolized so quickly, 400-500 cals/hr depending on the individual. Obviously, 400-500 is less than 600-800 so you have two options: slow down to <70% of your max HR (slow enough that caloric demand drops low enough to be met 100% by BF), or make up the difference. Short term you can make up the difference with glycogen (intramuscular starch). Glycogen storage is relative to muscle mass, so depending on body size and body composition you can carry 1,000-2,000 cals as glycogen. This is why there is no need for food on runs under two hours. You can also improve your fat burning capability through training and diet, but that's a different discussion.

If you will be out longer than 2-3 hours and want or need to maintain a pace faster than 70% of max HR you need to ingest some calories (and it’s preferable not to deplete your glycogen, your muscles function best when not glycogen depleted. You also stay hydrated better, every gram of glycogen stores 4 grams of water). The vast majority of those calories should be from starch/polysaccharides since they are calorie-dense and digested very easily. Maltodextrin is the starch you will find in virtually all Gu-type products. Whole food starches are fine too, just keep the fiber content to a minimum. My current personal favorite is peeled cubed potatoes cooked in heavily salted water. I’m not a fan of anything in drink form. I find them pretty unpalatable when warm and you want to avoid simple sugars anyway which is what most are. SuperStarch is an interesting new product that I have yet to try, but I know bagtagely has used it with good results.

After about 3 hours, your body needs amino acids to continue producing energy. If you do not ingest any amino acids your body will get them from the only other place it can—your muscles. This is bad, very bad. Specialty endurance foods with aminos in them work great, but so does eating a few small bites of jerky or other complete protein every hour or so. Small amounts of fat are helpful at this point too as they help to buffer stomach acid. Those little individual packets of nut butters are great for this.

Don’t over drink. Dehydration kills you slowly, hyponatremia kills you fast. Electrolyte supplements are crucial during extended efforts in hot weather (generally >80* F). I’m not a fan of stuff like Nuun that you put in your water. I prefer caplet-style ones like S-Caps or Saltstick Caps. You can even make these on the cheap by buying empty gelcaps in bulk and filling them with table salt.

would like to avoid caffeine for the most part.

Reason? While you don’t want caffeine to be a crutch it’s a powerful tool in the toolkit. Besides the stimulant effect, caffeine boosts your mobilization of fatty acids from BF and can help ease headaches. I always carry caffeine with me on long runs/rides. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don’t, but it has saved my ass a couple times.

[OldLarry]

Non idea about the science but I loves me some caffeinated cliff bars on a long run. Break off little chunks, seems to work great. rarely finish a whole bar. Electrolyte drinks help a bit but water is key also- too sticky...

[OldLarry]

Oh and another 18 on Friday. Happened to be right by the house so stopped. Should have and could have easily done 20+ but had a wedding to go to a couple hours away. Yay awkward small weddings of people too old to have bothered!

[Cruiser]

Wow. Thanks for the info DTM!

Should clarify that I'm not saying that I'm getting hungry. Just that I noticed a drop in my output/pace and wondered if there was a quick fix available that would allow me to have my cake and eat it to, by which I mean something that'd give me a little kick in the ass without causing a bunch of unwanted side effects. Coffee, and I assume caffeine, makes me jittery and sours my stomach if I haven't eaten (pretty much always run in the mornings before having anything to eat).

If I understand your post correctly though, you're saying that you agree with my second post. I should, at least on shorter duration in-town runs like the scenario above, just quit bitching and run cuz my body has plenty of energy ready to burn.

[Cruiser]

Oh and another 18 on Friday. Happened to be right by the house so stopped. Should have and could have easily done 20+ but had a wedding to go to a couple hours away. Yay awkward small weddings of people too old to have bothered!

Yer gonna kick the NYC Marathon's ass this year Larry! Giddyup!

[Dantheman]

If I understand your post correctly though, you're saying that you agree with my second post. I should, at least on shorter duration in-town runs like the scenario above, just quit bitching and run cuz my body has plenty of energy ready to burn.

Pretty much. Unless it's a race or you're going for a PR you're better off not eating during runs of that distance.

[Tech Tonics]

Excellent post, Dantheman. Thanks!

[OldLarry]

Yer gonna kick the NYC Marathon's ass this year Larry! Giddyup!

Thanks for the encouragement!

[bean]

Second Dantheman's comments on not eating on "short" runs. It isn't until I go past two hours that I bother eating anything. In related news, I took first overall in a trail half marathon over the weekend and didn't touch any of the aid stations.

[Dantheman]

I took first overall in a trail half marathon over the weekend

Bad ass!

[OldLarry]

4:01 biznatches

[::: :::]

4:01 biznatches

Congrats! Good job!

[Cruiser]

That's hawt!!!

[hutash]

Must suck to be one second off

Excellent job!

[OldLarry]

Thanks guys- the woman coming to a dead stop directly in front of me on fifth ave was a little tough, ha ha. Glad it's over but a great experience as always.

[hutash]

Don't you just want to kick them in the VJ?

I ran the Long Beach half last month's (I'm too big a puss to run a whole ). It was abnormally hot so half the runners started early, which means us later starters caught them during the last few miles. They were walking in massive groups and blocking the whole fucking road. I ran some of the last few miles with the cars on the other side of the cones. It was easier dealing with them then all the ladies chatting about what the fuck ever they chat about in the closing miles.

[OldLarry]

Don't you just want to kick them in the VJ?

I ran the Long Beach half last month's (I'm too big a puss to run a whole ). It was abnormally hot so half the runners started early, which means us later starters caught them during the last few miles. They were walking in massive groups and blocking the whole fucking road. I ran some of the last few miles with the cars on the other side of the cones. It was easier dealing with them then all the ladies chatting about what the fuck ever they chat about in the closing miles.

This was going on during the last mile for me, too. Also around mile 15 there was a group of SEVEN people "running" 15 minute miles together side by side in matching "Live Strong" jackets. literally blocking 1/2 the road.

[Viva]

Nice effort, Larry. Road Trip, who used to post here, ran with you and finished just a little ahead.

[OldLarry]

Nice effort, Larry. Road Trip, who used to post here, ran with you and finished just a little ahead.

Bastage! thanks

[bagtagley]

RE: Dan's post. I've been taking dark chocolate on longer runs/rides, 70+%. Super calorie dense and it has the perfect mix of sugar, fat and protein, for me at least.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Buddy of mine who ran NYC saw a lady who had shit her pants at mile 15. She was just chugging along like everything was ok..

[Cruiser]

I had one of those moments yesterday where I was like, "Wow, this must be why people love to run." I was cruising along the Mary Carter Greenway that follows the Platte near Chatfield and I passed this beautiful section of the river where it picks up speed and drops a few feet down through some rocks. The sun was shining on a cloudless morning and there was virtually no wind. Temps were perfect in the upper 30's and most of the landscape was still coated in snow from last week's storm. There was a hawk sitting in the top of a big bare cottonwood watching the field below. And then this song came up in my shuffle. It was perfect. [/blog]

[hutash]

While I run in some sweet spots, often on deserted beaches at low tide, birds, seals, dolphins, et al, I never have those moments. I just never get into that zone, or runners high so many people experience. To me it is always work. Some days less then others, but never those Zen moments. Not that I don't enjoy beach, trail or river runs.

[Mazderati]

I had one of those moments yesterday where I was like, "Wow, this must be why people love to run." I was cruising along the Mary Carter Greenway that follows the Platte near Chatfield and I passed this beautiful section of the river where it picks up speed and drops a few feet down through some rocks. The sun was shining on a cloudless morning and there was virtually no wind. Temps were perfect in the upper 30's and most of the landscape was still coated in snow from last week's storm. There was a hawk sitting in the top of a big bare cottonwood watching the field below. And then this song came up in my shuffle. It was perfect. [/blog]

Yeah, saw that in a movie.

[Meathelmet]

This prolly should be in tech talk, but what the fuck do they know..

What are the options for GTX, ankle high running shoes? For a broad foot ,103mm/24.5 ski / 39-41 euro running shoe.

I have run a lot with Nike Free+ (old, 2k+ km with the same pair, still doing strong), Merrel Trail Gloves, Inov-8 Talons and got the Inov-8 talon GTX 286s for winter/shit running.

The GTX 286s are damn good shoes, but the Inov-8 last that is already dynafit like..read, really narrow, are killing my feet on the longer romps.
Midfoot compression and silly heel issues. The GTX membrane seems to turn the boot much narrower than the Talons for example, the "shell" just
doesnt stretch.

So, basically looking forward to that kind of runnable, light, GTX membrane boots with a bit wider last. Is there any?

And no, dont suggest SealSkin socks, they wear out after 100km. Have had 2-3 pairs and even when new they feel moist as fuck after a muddy trail.
And no, dont suggest anything related to Salomon either. Had a pair of the older GTX shoes (3D stuff) and those pieces of shit are not even stitched by the
sole, so by definition they cant hold water.

I run/hike a lot in a terrain that is wet/muddy most of the time so the 286 with the higher cuff has been a blessing. Works well, good grip, feet stay dry.
But after 1h the narrow last start to take its toll.

Any other options out there I should look after?