Please Read--Business Advice Needed--Photo Related

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 02:16 PM

This is not the typical photography advice thread. I don't need to know how much I should be getting for a full-page photo in this week's community crimewatch newsletter. This is about mine and my family's future. AND I NEED YOUR HELP!

Ever since I picked up a camera, it has been my dream to one day open my own fine art/scenic photography gallery. I don't want to own a corner of space here and there--I want to do it right. I want a nice space to call my own where I can display large, jaw-dropping prints. As you all know, I'm working on the jaw-dropping part. And of course--I always welcome any advice or insight anyone has for that side of this business as well.

The bigger question for me is--does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing? By this sort of thing, I mean:

a) finding investors or taking out a business loan
b) calculating costs of buying/renting space
c) approaching investors
d) calculating costs of opening/running a gallery

More specifically
a) overhead involved with a gallery (other than obvious of space rental, paying personnel, utilities, etc.)
b) solid lighting and costs associated with purchasing/installation
c) any previous experience in working in a gallery or similar situation that would be helpful

I do have some money saved, and will be able to save more towards this venture in the next several years, but am primarily thinking about approaching investors to start this.

I am working on a business proposal right now and am in the very preliminary stages, but would greatly appreciate any advice anyone has on this as well. I have been visiting several galleries trying to glean any information possible from the photographer as far as their particular journey to success, lessons learned, helpful advice, etc. Time frame on this is really in the next 2-5 years and is primarily dependent on cost of startup and bottomline figures for getting by once I've actually established this.

While I don't claim to be an entrepreneur of any sort, I am somewhat business savvy. I do have a decent amount of marketing experience, and a great deal of experience with PR--which is what I currently do for my full-time job (when I'm not wasting time reading about all of you perverts).

Most importantly, I am extremely passionate about photography and realizing this dream. I believe one of the most key ingredients to making this all work is to have a sizeable collection of impeccable, sellable, irresistable imagery. I feel as though I have a small collection, and am working on building that each day/month/year. I believe that passion, dedication and determination will ultimately allow me to overcome most of the obstacles that will stand in my way (and surely there will be many), but I also know that it will take a good deal of solid business sense and an even greater deal of foresight and planning to be successful. This is where I need your help. Please share any insight, suggestions, advice, warnings, etc. you may have. Thanks for your time, and as always--thanks for all the encouragment always offered here.

Lastly--if you know anyone who would interested in a venture like this, please pm me. Thanks.

**Hutch** · 03-14-2007, 02:22 PM

Not much advice to give, but props for focusing on realizing your dream.

Have you considered an SBA loan (or other debt financing) instead of equity financing?

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pope Benedict XVI

Not much advice to give, but props for focusing on realizing your dream.

Have you considered an SBA loan (or other debt financing) instead of equity financing?

Spill the beans on the SBA Loan. I'm a finance retard, but my wife is a wiz. Thanks.

**Hutch** · 03-14-2007, 02:36 PM

Well, I'm only aware of them because one of my clients defaulted on one and it is now being litigated, but SBA stands for Small Business Administration, and I think they're basically government-backed loans meant to help stimulate the economy by helping people start small businesses. http://www.sba.gov/

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pope Benedict XVI

Well, I'm only aware of them because one of my clients defaulted on one and it is now being litigated, but SBA stands for Small Business Administration, and I think they're basically government-backed loans meant to help stimulate the economy by helping people start small businesses. http://www.sba.gov/

I'll check it out. Thanks.

**mc_roon** · 03-14-2007, 02:43 PM

find an angel or two

**H-man** · 03-14-2007, 02:44 PM

Griz,

Long shot but I knew a chick that did this kinda thing once, or at least ran a similar gallery situation. Let me see if I can dig her up.

After all, I am single now...

**Sutter** · 03-14-2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by mc_roon

find an angel or two

"Come talk to me my son, I have simple ways to make your dreams come true..."

**LegoSkier** · 03-14-2007, 03:02 PM

Have quite a bit of experience in this area (http://www.dcoatproductions.com/DImg.html). Don't have time right now to write something down but will do it tonight after work.

**hutash** · 03-14-2007, 03:44 PM

I do not want to burst your bubble, but 90+% of small businesses fail, and are destined to fail before they even open the doors. The kind of questions your are asking are very important, and a step in the right direction. If most of those 90+% had asked at least some of them many would survive. I would highly recommend talking a small business class at the local community college. Learn about business plans, finance, rules and regulations et cetera. If you don't even know what as SBA loan is, you are no where near ready to start a small business. I am not criticizing, and the fact that your are looking a few years down the road shows that you are just beginning the process.

The other thing I would recommend is to find a good business advisor and or mentor who you can go to with questions. I run my own business/practice, and my tax advisor has saved my butt more than once.

I think it is great to do what you are passionate about. Running your own business can be great, but also a royal pain in the ass. Good luck

**ak_powder_monkey** · 03-14-2007, 03:50 PM

good luck man! someday I hope to do the same

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

I do not want to burst your bubble, but 90+% of small businesses fail, and are destined to fail before they even open the doors. The kind of questions your are asking are very important, and a step in the right direction. If most of those 90+% had asked at least some of them many would survive. I would highly recommend talking a small business class at the local community college. Learn about business plans, finance, rules and regulations et cetera. If you don't even know what as SBA loan is, you are no where near ready to start a small business. I am not criticizing, and the fact that your are looking a few years down the road shows that you are just beginning the process.

The other thing I would recommend is to find a good business advisor and or mentor who you can go to with questions. I run my own business/practice, and my tax advisor has saved my butt more than once.

I think it is great to do what you are passionate about. Running your own business can be great, but also a royal pain in the ass. Good luck

All good info. I'm getting a lot of responses from people advising me of the numerous pitfalls of taking on something like this--and it is good to hear it all. Obviously, this will all play a part in the things I do to begin establishing what I hope to be a successful gallery. I know this will not be easy and that there is likely more going against than for me. I've got a long ways to go, but this is all part of the process. Thanks for your .02

**bossass** · 03-14-2007, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by H-man

Griz,

Long shot but I knew a chick that did this kinda thing once, or at least ran a similar gallery situation. Let me see if I can dig her up.

After all, I am single now...

Necrophiliac.

**TeleHoar** · 03-14-2007, 03:56 PM

As an artist and hack photographer I would say you probably don't want to get the loan right off. Most Photographers I know who now have a gallery came into after a establishing themselves in other markets.

Wherever they came from most started out in small art fairs, some greeting cards in other gift shops, etc... This is where you learn what people are going to buy...Jaw-dropping is nice but you may sell more of the trite cutesy stuff, or boring landscapes or...who knows.

Art fairs are a great way to get into it - cheap...buy 10 by 10 tent, get some greeting cards made, some of your best framed prints...set up for a few weekends and you will really start to figure out the business. If you can make that work then a shop is another bigger step that you may or may not want.

You may also, in a shop, have to offer photographer's supplies or framing and discover that all of a sudden - you are not a photographer any more, but a framer, or retail photo-finisher of other people's snapshots.

About the only prints only photographer gallery around here is Mengelson...and even he has trouble keeping some of his shops open.

Take small, affordable steps...then down the road a loan will take you a lot farther.

**Jer** · 03-14-2007, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

I do not want to burst your bubble, but 90+% of small businesses fail ...

... so get ten loans.

Basically, you want to sell art? ... in Utah?

Well, I've seen it done ... not easy, not fast. They've either been art bums (not good if you have a family, and sometimes you get really hungry); held a good day job & made art their hobby (total freedom of expression, not much freedom of time); or held a part-time job and worked hard to market their art through galleries, expositions, co-ops, shops.

But they don't tend to run their own galleries or shops. Probably too expensive and time-consuming, I guess. On top of a job and a full-time hobby, running a shop might be too much to deal with.

Some have held small showings in their homes - gotta pay attention to lighting & the look of the house itself ... might be a useful way to figure out what works and how. 'Course you learn the same by setting up shows in galleries. Betcha the U has some resources and maybe a class on how to become a successful businessartist.

**Tippster** · 03-14-2007, 03:59 PM

Dude - join something like the Art co-op in Snowbird Center. Unfortunately they already have at least one nature photographer exhibiting there and I have no idea if they'd be willing to add another. There must be some galleries in PC that you could talk to to sell your stuff on Consignment. Then, once you get an idea as to what people like and will buy from you... and how many pieces a month you'll likely move, you can better gauge your budget for opening your own place.

**TyWebb** · 03-14-2007, 04:00 PM

Griz, please PM me if you want to talk on the phone about this...it's a lot to write. I've started 3 businesses now. 2 were bootstrapped (savings, credit cards etc..) and 1 was funded through a combination of debt (loans) and equity (private investors). I've sold two of them and am currently running the 3rd now. I do not have knowledge relating to a gallery specifically, but have a lot of experience in regards to bootstrapping vs. investors. That decision carries with it a lot of consequences and there may be a few nuggets I can pass on.

**skiguide** · 03-14-2007, 04:04 PM

Grizz...

Good on you for exploring this dream... Other than the stuff you're already working on.. (and you may already have an answer for this that you didn't share)

- David W beat me to it -

Can SLC UT really support this type of thing? is the Art Scene that big here?? I may be ignorant in such matters, but i'm going to say it's borderline as far as income to expense ratio.

Or is Park City where you need to focus?

**skadams.ca** · 03-14-2007, 04:10 PM

Griz, you're welcome to PM me for some more info on this as well. I'm 6 months in on a company that has been funded by a Venture Capital firm and could likely shed some light on both the positives and negatives of this type of financing. I also have some good friends who have taken a different route in their start-up and we're able to compare weekly 'war' stories about our companies' progress. Like TyWebb says, its a lot to write so drop a PM. Good on ya - you got a heads up on a lot of business start-ups by focusing on a passion of yours!

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 04:11 PM

Keep it coming. Thanks for all the advice. Will likely be contacting some of you via pm or phone. I guess I should add that I have had a business registered with the state for 2 years now and have grown it successfully in those two years. I work with several interior designers and have placed my work in several restaurants/other spots (currently on display at the Grand America Hotel if anyone wants to check it out). I am planning a show for this spring/summer and hope to do another in the fall. To a certain extent--I am understanding what sells--and I will say that the majority of what I sell is not scenic landscape. I make most of my money through stock sales of either activity-based stuff, location stuff or other random shots here and there. So--I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have been slowly building up to this--but I do want to one day have a gallery. Even then, I doubt the majority of my income will be from scenic stuff. I have several other ideas on the side to supplement it. Maybe it's not possible--who knows. I'll continue to test the waters and study my successes/failures.

**MacDaddy** · 03-14-2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by skiguide

Grizz...

Can SLC UT really support this type of thing? is the Art Scene that big here?? I may be ignorant in such matters, but i'm going to say it's borderline as far as income to expense ratio.

Or is Park City where you need to focus?

This girl (love ya babe) may have a point. You need to check out the UT arts fest in June ask these same questions.

good luck

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by skiguide

Grizz...

Good on you for exploring this dream... Other than the stuff you're already working on.. (and you may already have an answer for this that you didn't share)

- David W beat me to it -

Can SLC UT really support this type of thing? is the Art Scene that big here?? I may be ignorant in such matters, but i'm going to say it's borderline as far as income to expense ratio.

Or is Park City where you need to focus?

Yeah--all you guys are right on. I don't believe SLC is necessarily the right location for a gallery--although I have considered the new City Creek Center that will be completed in a couple of years. As others have mentioned, I need a spot with consistent tourist traffic of tourists who will spend money. Park City is the perfect location, yet is already quite saturated with (solid) photographers. Other locations like Sun Valley or Jackson Hole are equally saturated--plus, I'd like it to be close to home (Utah) if possible. This is perhaps my biggest obstacle--the only place nearby that really could support a venture such as this would likely be Park City. I've also considered Gateway Mall, but I think rent would be far too expensive, and I'm still not convinced it has the right type of buyer.

Edit: I've also thought about the Redstone Mall, but am concerned once again about rent and am still not sold on the amount/type of traffic it sees.

**hemas** · 03-14-2007, 04:18 PM

Grizzle, drop a PM to Lostinthetrees... He might have some ideas/experience and such (though not per se about photos, but anyway).

**Eldo** · 03-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by grizzle6

Ever since I picked up a camera, it has been my dream to one day open my own fine art/scenic photography gallery...

Is it your dream to own and operate a gallery, or to make a living as a photographer?

Because owning a gallery will be time spent not taking photos.

When I get together with fellow photogs, we all bitch about the business side of photography that out of necessity we are forced to deal with. I really can't imagine choosing to spend less time on the creative side of things and more time on the business side.

You're already on the right track. Keep getting your work into (other people's) galleries, do exhibitions, continue your internet marketing, and keep cultivating new clients.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

**grizzle6** · 03-14-2007, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Eldo

Is it your dream to own and operate a gallery, or to make a living as a photographer?

Because owning a gallery will be time spent not taking photos.

When I get together with fellow photogs, we all bitch about the business side of photography that out of necessity we are forced to deal with. I really can't imagine choosing to spend less time on the creative side of things and more time on the business side.

You're already on the right track. Keep getting your work into (other people's) galleries, do exhibitions, continue your internet marketing, and keep cultivating new clients.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

I hear you. That's a tough question to answer, because the answer is yes--to both. I am already making decent side income through my photography (but nowhere near enough to support a family), but want to run with the big dogs some day. When I walk into a gallery, I feel two things: 1) I'm very impressed with the majority of what I look at and 2) I know that it could be me one day--if I do it right. I'm already finding the business side of photography takes a serious toll on time spent in the field--constantly trying to understand how to better balance the two.