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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by upallnight View Post
    whether or not someone ought to be riding a less expensive ski is really outside the scope of the review, and deciding who 'deserves' to ride what just comes across as sour grapes.
    Not less expensive, better suited for a beginner. Yer kinda twisting my words there, buddy.

    And trying to help a kid out who, in MY opinion, got some really bad advice from someone on those boots/skis, is not sour grapes.

    What I'm guilty of is saying is that this review is kinda worthless knowing his background. Well written, but would you read an article that Max wrote on how to hook up with girls and take it seriously? (Sorry, Max....can't.....stop....the....beatdown.)

  2. #27
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    ^^^ I do agree that the plug boot thing is pretty silly. I think I've been reading a few threads where some folks are mentioning plug boots as if it were a badge of honor...then either asking or telling how they softened them up. Seems kind of silly. Most skiers in the world don't need 'em, and using that type of equipment can really hold an intermediate back.

    Shit, regular alpine boots are too stiff for many people.

  3. #28
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    I think he went for a plug boot because he was planning on doing a lot of racing but then he didn't.

    I know I'd never take a plug boot. You'd have to use a crowbar to get me in such a narrow stiff boot.

    Hell, my hotrods are stiffer than I'd like except when I'm on hard snow.

    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    Not less expensive, better suited for a beginner.
    Maybe you should buy him an edgie-wedgie
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  4. #29
    Squatch Guest
    i think max also got his boots new for $100. And later realized why it was $100--no one wants a plug boot.

    Live and learn? He's softened them up and is making them work.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    You are not what you own, Max. Hardcore gear doesn't make a hardcore skier. It makes a broke, frustrated skier that is held back by his equipment (at your ability). Enthusiasm is what really makes a good skier, you know: someone whos fun to ski with....and you seem strive on enthusiasm....maybe stick to that while you are getting some years under your belt. The best big mountain skiers usually peak around 30, so what's the rush? Experience gets you good, not always equipment. [/big brotherly advice attempt]
    I haven't read any other posts by Max, but I never got the impression that Max was claiming to be hardcore skier... he just liked the skis he was skiing on.

    I do, however, agree with you that there are a ton of muppets in this world who think good gear makes them a sick skier. I just didn't get that impression from Max in this post.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch View Post
    i think max also got his boots new for $100. And later realized why it was $100--no one wants a plug boot.

    Live and learn? He's softened them up and is making them work.
    Exactly. Larry here (who is DEFINITELY good people) was doing what he thought was best for me: getting me a well-fitting, stiff-as-fuck boot that could be stiff for racing but soft for freeskiing at a RIDICULOUS price. I think he overestimated my skiing ability (or at least my ability to flex a stiff boot), and now I'm doing what I can to make it work. I softened the boots up to what i would estimate as a solly 100 or 110 flex, and I feel like my skiing has improved at least 5% just because of that. I didn't get the plug boot out of pride--I got it because someone I trust told me it was a good thing for me to do and because I got a stupid good deal on them.

    I'm not BLAMING marshal for this ski purchase, but he was a fairly strong proponent in my decision to buy these skis. He had skied with me a few times and suggested a bunch that I would really like these skis. He was exactly right, and I thank him for his guidance.

    slippy, if I thought gnar gear made a good skier, I would have gotten the flex 3 190. You'll notice I got the 178 flex 2 because I thought it would be a lot easier for a "beginner" to ski. I was right. I definitely have an easier time on these skis than I did on marshal's 190s. I do appreciate your input, slippy, and I can tell that you are just trying to give solid advice based on what you know about me. I will tell you, however, as politely as I can, to fuck off until you have skied with me. My ability is starting to improve a fair amount, probably due to this enthusiasm, as you put it, and what Dside calls "a hell of a lot of ambition" to be better. I can ski the lotuses to the extent that I love the hell out of them. They are the most fun skis I have ever been on, and if you've seen my debatably absurd collection of skis, I think that counts for at least a small something. I'm hoping to get on a pair of spats to compare, and if anyone around here ever gets some ARGs or whatever and was willing to let me try them, I would do just that and then share my objective opinion.

    I wrote this review expecting extrapolation from my results: bigger guys who ski much more aggressively than me would by default choose the bigger model, which I can't help but assume would behave the same way. Guys who are at the beginning of the TGR learning curve (which starts fairly high, IMHO) should probably choose this ski if they are considering something with tip rocker. Small guys who ski more aggressively than me could choose between the 178 and the 190 based on their skiing style.

    If you don't think my input counts for shit, take what I say as a grain of salt. If you know me and can put this review into a realistic context with respect to how YOU ski, that's great, as I'm stoked to try to help people out. It is what it is.

    That said, I skied some fairly heavy creamy pow this morning in the trees at Berthoud on my B3s and struggled to initiate turns. I skied the same type of snow at Loveland a little later in the day on my Lotuses, and it was like cheating. I was able to scrub speed without stopping in order to initiate the next turn and ski just more fluidly through the trees. It was fun.

    I also skied a few semi-soft steep bump runs in the afternoon trying to chase marshal, Dside, Z, et al on my Lotuses. Damn impressive how well they handled the bumps. Very quick (I'd also use the word "smooth"), and I felt a lot more in control than I do much of the time in the bumps. One of the guys even said I "looked good" on them. (blushing)

    If these things were more fun on hardpack and if I never had any desire to jib, I think I'd probably sell the entire rest of my quiver and mount them AT.
    "I said flotation is groovy"
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    "Just... ski down there and jump offa somethin' for cryin' out loud!!!"
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  7. #32
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    If he'd bought himself a pair of 194 Squads it would be one thing, but every review of the Lotuses has said how ridiculously easy they are to handle. That's certainly my experience on them, and I'm no rockstar
    fur bearing, drunk, prancing eurosnob

  8. #33
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    if I were in this situation, which im not, but if I were....

    knowing that I was a "rapidly improving skier" and that these skis cost 900$, id have probably waited another year to get better where I wouldnt outgrow the 178 and could really use the extra length of the 190.

    having said that Im sure those skis are a ton of fun

    AND you could always buy the 190s in a couple years and then put dynafits on the 178s

    and id let you try out the spats, but you have midget feet

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Days View Post
    I do appreciate your input, slippy, and I can tell that you are just trying to give solid advice based on what you know about me. I will tell you, however, as politely as I can, to fuck off until you have skied with me.
    You can totally tell me to fuck off. Don't worry about that part. My frame of reference is when I moved out west, I hung out with a bunch of good skiers who told me I needed stiffer boots and softer skis. They were right and my skiing improved right away. (And they tore apart my skiing and taught me everything, which was the best part.) And then they laughed at my purchase of Steep Tech, which made me look hardcore (or so I thought) but didn't improve my skiing at all. Everyone is pretty fucking aware of your million posts on this board, it's not hard to put two and two together. It doesn't sound you're as lucky as I was with good advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Days View Post
    That said, I skied some fairly heavy creamy pow this morning in the trees at Berthoud on my B3s and struggled to initiate turns. I skied the same type of snow at Loveland a little later in the day on my Lotuses, and it was like cheating. I was able to scrub speed without stopping in order to initiate the next turn and ski just more fluidly through the trees. It was fun.
    Exactly my point with these skis, NOT that they are expensive. Skipping to the fun part of the learning curve is great, but I'd learn how to ski before learning how to cheat.....whoops, yer right I haven't skied with you. I doubt I'm way off on this, but who knows. You have more excuses than anyone on this board, so whatever. I wish you luck, and go to Gordy's camp if you can!

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    Exactly my point with these skis, NOT that they are expensive. Skipping to the fun part of the learning curve is great, but I'd learn how to ski before learning how to cheat.....whoops, yer right I haven't skied with you. I doubt I'm way off on this, but who knows. You have more excuses than anyone on this board, so whatever. I wish you luck, and go to Gordy's camp if you can!
    My thoughts also. IF I were healthy (meaning my knee were in great shape), I'd spend time bashing bumps and skiing lots of trees until I was good at it. But I'm not. Not yet. So I make do with what I've got. The Lotuses seem to be a good lesson in teaching me that getting better isn't ALL of what skiing is about... it should be about having fun, too.

    Interesting that you point out how many excuses I have for whatever I do. Take racing for example: I ALWAYS have some shit to do that prevents me from racing (physical therapy, volunteer meetings, tests, skiing pow, studying, whatever), and everyone thinks my excuses are illegitimate. Frankly, I don't really care because I know that my desire to race is pure and that making excuses is non-productive and pointless anyway.

    Never thought I had the skill base to get the full potential of a Gordy camp. I've been told a few times that I do, and I'm planning to get to one next year. I'm stoked.


    Pechelman: I don't think I'll EVER want anything longer than 185. I'm 5'8 for God's sake! I think there's a cap to ski length at some point...
    "I said flotation is groovy"
    -Jimi Hendrix

    "Just... ski down there and jump offa somethin' for cryin' out loud!!!"
    -The Coolest Guy to have Ever Lived

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    Skipping to the fun part of the learning curve is great, but I'd learn how to ski before learning how to cheat.....
    That is actually a good point. It does feel like cheating many times with those skis. But I also felt it was like cheating first time I tried some fat skis (XXX). So I guess that argument can be used against all the development of powder and off-piste skis. Better equipment makes it ridicilously much easier to ski off-piste.

    The fact that Max enjoys his skis tremendously, and feel like he has become a better skier sort of settles this discussion for me...
    All work and no play, ... you know...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Days View Post
    Never thought I had the skill base to get the full potential of a Gordy camp. I've been told a few times that I do, and I'm planning to get to one next year. I'm stoked.
    I guess Gordy would be the one to answer that. Maybe ask him if you should take a mogul lesson or two (when yer knee feels better)...to get ready for the camp. Because the hands forward-lean forward-shoulders downhill is ?prolly? a good foundation before going to his camp. But I really dunno, he might say that's a bad idea. I wanna go to his camp too. Now I'm just rambling.....ramble ramble ramble.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    Because the hands forward-lean forward-shoulders downhill is ?prolly? a good foundation before going to his camp.
    Pretty confident I know how to do that... And by that, I mean I don't have to prove my ability to anyone except whoever's coaching me at Gordy's camp and myself.

    Hopefully I'll learn to post productive and insightful threads without them all turning into a personal matter regarding my skiing ability, decision-making ability, life choices, etc. So I'd appreciate if we could return the discussion to the skis and away from me as a skier.
    "I said flotation is groovy"
    -Jimi Hendrix

    "Just... ski down there and jump offa somethin' for cryin' out loud!!!"
    -The Coolest Guy to have Ever Lived

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Days View Post
    Hopefully I'll learn to post productive and insightful threads without them all turning into a personal matter regarding my skiing ability, decision-making ability, life choices, etc. So I'd appreciate if we could return the discussion to the skis and away from me as a skier.
    Yeah, good luck with that. Either way I'll leave you alone from now on.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by laseranimal View Post
    that is EXACTLY what I'm looking for

    too bad its way out of my price range

    let the savings commence!
    Same here, except that I'd be more interested in the 190 for a super duper west coast gun (for me.) I'll be sticking to the Pow+ for the immediate future I think. The terrain I commonly ski and number of real pow days I get don't warrant such an investment.

    That said, very thorough review Max.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by slippy View Post
    Skipping to the fun part of the learning curve is great, but I'd learn how to ski before learning how to cheat.....whoops
    And everyone should learn to ski on straight skis before they get to cheat with shaped skis. Afterall, I had to!

    Also everyone should learn to ski pow on 210 DH boards before they can cheat with fat skis.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  17. #42
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    ^ That's not a bad idea.

  18. #43
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    FYI: max is nowhere near a bad skier. he is actually a very good skier.

    so don't talk shit about him or what he does unless you have made a few runs with him. he can out ski most on this site.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    FYI: max is nowhere near a bad skier. he is actually a very good skier.

    so don't talk shit about him or what he does unless you have made a few runs with him. he can out ski most on this site.
    Yup. Best have something to back it up if you are talking shit...
    Drive slow, homie.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    FYI: max is nowhere near a bad skier. he is actually a very good skier.

    so don't talk shit about him or what he does unless you have made a few runs with him. he can out ski most on this site.
    word, he is a good skier, but lacks technical skills (cough race more cough). but he is by no means a gaper. also note that he as been skiing for a much shorter amount of time then most people here, he did just move to Colorado from new Orleans a couple years ago
    ‎Preserving farness, nearness presences nearness in nearing that farness

  21. #46
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    seriously. Why the big hassle of this guy. I hate it when people hate on others because of equipment. Some can afford nice stuff, some can't - big deal.

    If the Lotus's make skiing more fun, and easier, what's the problem with that. This really stinks of a spilled jug of Haterade...

    And I agree, nice review that really was written without any dickwaving - refreshing I think... if you bastards hadn't already lead me and my friend visa to buy a bunch of FUN skis - (like the Praxis) - I would be thinking of the Lotus's for sure. I wouldn't have been interested in the Praxis at all if it weren't for reviews like this one... and I went ahead and bought them and have had a couple of really great days on 'em. Maybe that'll happen with someone else and the 178 lotus 120... that's all I got.

    /thread killa!
    Last edited by jfost; 03-06-2007 at 09:33 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfost View Post
    seriously. Why the big hassle of this guy. I hate it when people hate on others because of equipment. Some can afford nice stuff, some can't - big deal.

    If the Lotus's make skiing more fun, and easier, what's the problem with that. This really stinks of a spilled jug of Haterade...
    Sometimes I wonder if people like jfrost actually reads my posts. Then I wonder why I bother, if they don't know how to even read, because surely they try to read them. Is posting here as effective as arguing to yourself in a mirror? Because, man, that guy is ALWAYS pissed. I never win with that asshole.



    Anyhoo, I like the big brother defensiveness from y'all. I could be wrong, after all. But something fucking reeks (sometimes it's hard to pinpoint the smell) and it ain't the price tag, boys.

    Max is a good kid, I do like him. And out of 80 things I read on this board that sets me off, I'll respond to one of them. Oh well, this is one of them. If you don't like it, too bad.

    If you come to Utah, I'll show you around Max. And no, it won't be a ski-off, Z. I'll just have some fun and take him into Annies Trees at Alta, wait for him to crash, then steal his skis BECAUSE I CANT AFFORD GOOD SKIS I SUCK. hahahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaapoopoopoo on you.

    Seriously, I apologize if I reeeeeeeeaaaaly pissed you off Max. Opinions are like assholes, and I'm one.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfost View Post
    Why the big hassle of this guy. I hate it when people hate on others because of equipment. Some can afford nice stuff, some can't - big deal.
    FWIW I don't think it has anything to do with the equipment or this thread in particular. Sometimes someone just annoys other people. Max has a particular writing style that grates on me and from that I've got a mental picture of the sort of person he is*. But that's more a reflection on me and my intolerance - I should learn to deal with it better and be more accepting of other people's idiosyncrasies. For the most part I just keep my mouth shut. If I attack him his friends will come down on me anyway .

    Also, you may not have been around here long enough to see some of Max's history and why he has a certain persona on here. Most of the threads have been deleted AFAIK (edit: actually, there's some comedy gold still there). He'd be the first to admit he's made some mistakes and probably in hindsight created a bad image of himself. But we all make mistakes and that's OK as long as we learn from them.

    Max, FWIW I think you're probably a good kid. IMHO you just need to think a little bit before posting and acting. In this thread you did think and you posted well, so I think it's a good thread and a worthwhile review.

    *I get the impression that it's not just me Max annoys.
    Last edited by Toby; 03-07-2007 at 05:12 AM.

  24. #49
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    For some strange reason I'm not able to explain, Max does not annoy me...
    All work and no play, ... you know...

  25. #50
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    ^^^said the guy living in NORWAY!^^^^

    "It is not the result that counts! It is not the result but the spirit! Not what - but how. Not what has been attained - but at what price.
    - A. Solzhenitsyn

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