Interresting post on Silverton (x-post)

[Storm11]

Posted on Mountainbuzz.com

Dear fellow snowriders,

Don't get caught in Silverton Mountain's smoke screen for the BLM


On the morning of April 16, 2006, we loaded onto the Silverton Mountain chairlift for what was to be a great day to share with my best friends. After unloading we strapped our boards to our backs and headed up Billboard peak. We were told that this was the first time Billboard had ever been open to unguided skiers. This simple fact alone would be considered a "no-brainer" in my mind to make sure that proper markation lines be in affect and most importantly, have a ski patrol at the top of Billboard to alert un-guided skiers away from dangerous and/or illegal skiing zones. The fact is, there was no patrol at the top of Billboard when we arrived. Aaron Brill, the owner of Silverton Mnt. was finding it more important to take pictures of the first people descending the newly opened terrain rather than making sure that a member of his safety team was at the top of Billboard to verbally communicate to his patrons dangerous zones that could result in injury or death or, in our case, land you in front of the Silverton judge. Maybe a patroller could have told us that they didn't have time to put ropes up on the right side of Billboard, but no.
Ropes strung along bamboo or an orange and black "closed" sign is proper protocol in Colorado ski patrol as is in most of the world, and that for the 40 minutes of hiking we did to get to the top of Billboard; we encountered ropes with closed signs along the entire hike. These closures were very obvious to any skier and set the tone for our decent. As we "dropped in," one person at a time, we made our way down, very slowly and methodically due to the fact that we were in unfamiliar territory and had not been issued any verbal communications except midway on the hike a patroller yells "the right side is good to go!" After riding about 100 yards down Billboard peak, we traversed through what Silverton Mountain considers a "closure" marked with nothing more than three red sticks of bamboo. Not just in Colorado, but in the rest of the United States and Canada, this type of marking is used to signify a hazard or communicate caution to a skier. As experienced big mountain riders, this is obviously what caused us to enter this forbidden zone. Once we passed the sick, about 25 yards, we just stood there taking in the beauty, smiling while shaking our heads at each other in agreement, snapping some photos and preparing for the main drop. As this is happening, a patroller dressed in regular clothes ski up to us and says, "You guys just fucked up big!" At this point I am confused until I see his radio and his communicating with Aaron stating that he "got us." Once we found out that we had crossed Silverton's vague line of markation, we offered to traverse back the 25 yards to get back in bounds and continue with a good morning. This was our first run! The un-marked patroller says that "it's out of my hands; my boss has made up his mind." But continuously ignored to radio in our request to get back in bounds. Interestingly, the "guide/patroller" who is escorting us down the shoot we were on top of, called "chick flick" and "porn star" (as named by Silverton Mnt.) takes off down the shoot and says, "follow me" as he skis away leaving us where we stand. Now, I am no ski patrol, however, if we are being considered "poachers" at this point, and are in a danger zone which is supposedly why this shoot was closed, then why would this guide/patroller just take off and ski the entire shoot as if he is in an extreme competition. This made me think back to the possibility that he would not radio in our request to simply ski back in bounds because he wanted to ride this pristine shoot that was below him. First tracks, nothing like it, right powder hounds?
Well the ride down was pretty good, however difficult to fully enjoy due to the fact that we had already been informed that the authorities were on their way. I think this is Aaron Brill and Silverton mountain's way of trying to look good in the eyes of the BLM. And, his ego obviously will not accept any mistake, inexperience in guided or un-guided public skiing, or wrongdoing on his part. Once we arrived at the base area, we asked to speak with Aaron since his patrollers were placing all the blame for our dismay on him. He conveniently arrived at the base area about an hour later after we had already been issued a summons to appear in court and realized he that we were not going to leave without forcing him to look into our eyes and honestly declare no wrong doing on his part. I happened to record with my helmet-cam video and audio of many conversations that day which is the evidence to defend our innocence in court.
Silverton Mnt's manager, Jen Brill, stated that they "can't just put ropes all over the mountain for us…" reasons of man-power and overnight weather blowing the ropes around. I find this to be extremely unprofessional safety practice. Even more interesting, I listed to audio of Aaron stating how it's "hard" to put a rope up where we crossed into the forbidden because of rocks. However, that is untrue as well due to the fact that we took a photo of a tri-pod of bamboo erected on sheer rock, holding a rope signifying closed terrain while we were on the hike up. We rode our boards across snow to get to "porn star" and "chic flic." Another great discovery in my research was to find on Silverton's web-site the advertising of "porn star" and "chick flic" as open and to come ride it; before we got there. Monday morning, Silverton's web site advertised that two lucky skiers got to ride chick flic and porn star. Well they must have skied right through our tracks. Coincidentally, the very next weekend of opening, Silverton Mnt. advertised a "BLM gate" allowing riders to enter into the zone we had gotten ticketed for. However, charges against us stand. Aaron fears dropping charges will bring heat from the BLM because that would be admitting faults and possibly making it more difficult to get his beloved permit issued by the BLM to allow over 400 skiers per day. Don't show up on that day unless two runs is enough. Aaron stated that they have things to learn and ate up our input for proper safety and marking terrain like it was ice cream. Once he realized that we were not punk-ass kids trying to poach in front of everyone, yet honest, experienced mountain riders, it was too late. We have to appear in court now because of rash, uncalculated, egotistical, and general poor and lazy mountain safety management.
We can not forget about Aaron and Silverton Mountain continuously blaming BLM guidelines for his decisions to prosecute us. I am glad to hear of the stern regulations put in force by the BLM because one day, someone with less experience could easily and unknowingly penetrate Silverton's inexperienced snow safety team's work and find themselves in more trouble than just dealing with some legal issues.

Aaron Brill called the sheriff's department on us before we even dropped in to "closed" terrain considering us poachers. They brag about the number of people that have been caught. I believe the larger percentage of so-called poachers was not intending to break the law. Silverton Mountain's management is only concerned about getting an unguided skiing permit no matter the expense of others. Is this the kind of ski area that we should have in Colorado; one that accepts no blame for their shortcomings? Aaron Brill bought up a bunch of polluted land, put a chairlift on it, advertises a backcountry powder experience, yet opens and closes terrain like he is herding cows. You may take a run to scout a sweet line and on your way back there, you find that it's closed for the day… to you. Others may still ski it because they are on a "private tour." True backcountry skiers are better off hiking mountains that aren't dictated by an ego-maniac. Aaron Brill and his Silverton Mountain, in my opinion, just ruined a bunch of acres of once soulful backcountry terrain.

Sincerely,


Trea Sciortino
Crested Butte, CO

Discuss

[hutash]

Every other mountain seems to beable to post closed signs, or tape closed/dangerous areas, even when large or exposed. I have never been to Silverton, but it sonds like the blew it on this one.

[Danno]

direct link, since there's other stuff in there: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=11685

[Tippster]

Well, with the plethora of employees Silverton has.... I bet they didn't even Unload his skis from the car and carry them to the lift for him.

Please. What a whiny fuck.

[smmokan]

Silverton's lack of employees isn't a viable reason for not putting up appropriate signage. Are they going to play the "poor college kid" role and use that excuse every time they mess up? It sounds like they use their lack of funds and employees excuse a lot... They're a certified (?) ski area- they need to follow the rules just like everyone else.

[Danno]

Well, with the plethora of employees Silverton has.... I bet they didn't even Unload his skis from the car and carry them to the lift for him.

Please. What a whiny fuck.

Lame.

He may or may not be a whiny fuck, but your take is off base. Nothing in his post (or the one after his in the thread agreeing with him) indicates that the place wasn't posh enough for him and that's the real reason he's pissed.

[smmokan]

I've never been to Silverton- everything I know is from looking at their website and reading information on this message board, so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me that the owners of Silverton are using their "poor skier started up an extreme ski mountain" label to their advantage. They continually under-deliver (although there have been some killer TRs as well) and treat their customers like shit, and when someone complains, everyone defends them- "Dude, Aaron and Jen are living the dream, give them some slack... they don't have the money and resources to provide those things". Imagine if some of the incidents happened at a place like Snowbird or Telluride... you'd be pretty pissed too. I think they need to think about the way their customer service is perceived and work on it a little more.

[Tippster]

You're right - the obvious answer is that Silverton should lose their permit because if these guys' ignorance and their own inability to be like Snowbird or T-ride... Of course he wasn't bitching about the lack of amenities, that was hyperbole on my part, but knowing a bit what the situation on that hill is I wouldn't simply assume that if I can see it I can ski it. Maybe the high volume of Silverton TRs & discussions here have colored my objectivity, so I'll bow out of this one and apologize if I offended.

[INDY GS]

Sounds like they fucked up, both silverton and the riders.


An experienced skier knows it is CHUTE, not SHOOT.

[Danno]

I've never been to Silverton- everything I know is from looking at their website and reading information on this message board, so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me that the owners of Silverton are using their "poor skier started up an extreme ski mountain" label to their advantage. They continually under-deliver (although there have been some killer TRs as well) and treat their customers like shit, and when someone complains, everyone defends them- "Dude, Aaron and Jen are living the dream, give them some slack... they don't have the money and resources to provide those things". Imagine if some of the incidents happened at a place like Snowbird or Telluride... you'd be pretty pissed too. I think they need to think about the way their customer service is perceived and work on it a little more.

I have never been there either. And I love the idea of the place and definitely want to go; I've followed the news from when it was just a proposal. But I have seen SO many stories similar in attitude to this guy's (there's another one in his thread on the buzz) that I am beginning to think that people are cutting them too much slack. I'm not saying they should not get some slack, but it does seem like they do have a customer service problem, one that can't simply be explained away by being poor and ridiculously busy.

[robokill1981]

but it does seem like they do have a customer service problem, one that can't simply be explained away by being poor and ridiculously busy.

I've had 3 really fun ski days at Silverton and 2 ridiculously stupid customer service exchanges with a permanent employee there (mentioned in the story). Both times I've cut them some slack and had great ski days, but if I could buy my ticket online and never have to deal with some of the employees of Silverton I would in a heart beat.

The kids story is obviously a bit one sided, but if it's true then I'm even less stoked on Silverton. I'd love to hear Silverton's response to this (they do lurk here AFAIK).

[Cornholio]

I'll tell you what Silverton's response will be:

"We just opened up for unguided skiing and we're not about to risk it for any reason whatsoever. These guys were OB, and we absolutely have to follow protocol for that or they'll yank our permit. In the future, we promise to do a better job marking the closed terrain."

[smmokan]

Sounds like they need to invest in a few more ropes and stakes.

[Kya]

Isn't unguided skiing um............unguided. Shouldn't the riders be responsible for where they should and shouldn't have ended up? If its unguided skiing then there should be no guides, persons or ropes. Isn't that the entire draw to Silverton to begin with? I got the sense that they were stoked on being unguided but wanted trail signs and ropes to guide them around. But, hey, I could be wrong.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

Isn't unguided skiing um............unguided. Shouldn't the riders be responsible for where they should and shouldn't have ended up? If its unguided skiing then there should be no guides, persons or ropes. Isn't that the entire draw to Silverton to begin with? I got the sense that they were stoked on being unguided but wanted trail signs and ropes to guide them around. But, hey, I could be wrong.

There's the rub. Where do you draw the line between safety and freedom at a place that uses as their marketing hook the idea of a "lift-assisted backcountry experience" that can be unguided at times? I certainly don't know but I would bet that is a very fine line to walk most days. Either way I am excited to ski with some mags there come March.

[Adamantium]

Isn't unguided skiing um............unguided. Shouldn't the riders be responsible for where they should and shouldn't have ended up? If its unguided skiing then there should be no guides, persons or ropes. Isn't that the entire draw to Silverton to begin with? I got the sense that they were stoked on being unguided but wanted trail signs and ropes to guide them around. But, hey, I could be wrong.

no, they're pissed that they "got in trouble" for skiing somewhere they're not supposed to even though it was not at all clearly marked. EDIT: Danno explained what i was thinking better.


i've skied Silverton once, but that was guided. i didn't know they were starting to allow unguided skiers until i read this thread. when it was still just guide-only, they seemed to me like just another variation on cat or heli skiing. by allowing unguided people to ride that lift, they open up a whole can of worms and gray areas as far as who's responsible for what. it sounds like they are going to continue to have problems because of this.

[Danno]

Isn't unguided skiing um............unguided. Shouldn't the riders be responsible for where they should and shouldn't have ended up? If its unguided skiing then there should be no guides, persons or ropes. Isn't that the entire draw to Silverton to begin with? I got the sense that they were stoked on being unguided but wanted trail signs and ropes to guide them around. But, hey, I could be wrong.

I think that's kind of silly, it's unguided yet you must know -- without any asistance in any form -- where all the imaginary lines are that you are not allowed to cross? Sounds to me like these guys were fine with where they were, they were unguided and cool with it, but that if Silverton wants to nail them for being somewhere wrong, then Silverton has an obligation to provide some guidance as to where they can and can't go.

Edited to add: I am, of course, assuming for the sake of argument that most of what the guy said is true. But if you read that mountainbuzz thread (which admittedly is going to attract the people whgo had bad experiences) it does seem to be corroborated.

[skiski]

Isn't unguided skiing um............unguided. Shouldn't the riders be responsible for where they should and shouldn't have ended up? If its unguided skiing then there should be no guides, persons or ropes. Isn't that the entire draw to Silverton to begin with? I got the sense that they were stoked on being unguided but wanted trail signs and ropes to guide them around. But, hey, I could be wrong.

Well, the author's not the most easily comprehended writer in the world, but I understood his story to mean that they got in trouble for entering a closed area that was not properly marked as closed. It's one thing to say that they should be resposible for their own safety, but another to say that they should be responsible for staying out of closed terrain. The first is more like backcountry skiing, the latter is more like resort skiing.

To me this whole thing seems to be settled by the common sense rule that if the resort closes areas, then they should mark the closures clearly, especially if by virtue of their closure, they are making it illegal to ski in a particular area. It's the same thing as if the state put up an illegible speed limit sign and you got a ticket for speeding it, even though you couldn't read the sign.

[DJMingus]

It's really fucking simple in my mind - if areas are going to be closed then that has to be clearly communicated to the skiers. If they didn't duck a rope or ignore clear direction from mountain management somehow then there is no way in the world they should be charged with a crime. It's ridiculous enough that they had their tickets pulled! Lack of personnel is no excuse for the lack of ropes - by saying that Jen basically admitted it wasn't marked well enough.

Is there some sort of mountain map with closures that customers are supposed to be studying before heading up? I feel like something's missing here. How were they supposed to know what was closed if it ain't roped?

[FrankZappa]

There seems to be a few factors from all sides in the rumor mill.
I've heard things like the Brills are just building it up and will then turn around and sell it. So what. It is after all a business.
Then there's the BLM factor. As I recall this is the very first time a ski area has ever been on the BLM's turf. They're government and that means a slow learning/moving curve. I do believe there is a permit area so whether it's guided or unguided the riders have to stay within that "rented" zone.
San Juan county is extra tiny with almost no tax base and almost no population. I imagine there is small town politics at it's finest. What else would you expect. If you don't know about small town politics I suggest you go get involved in some and experience the misery yourself.
I've heard pros and cons (sometimes from within the same married couple) on both sides of the fence. Both sound good and bad at the same time. Things change and there's nothin' gonna keep that from happenin'.
Some folks don't have such a good time there. Sorry. But I think the majority comes away with a good expeience.
I personally had a great time and will continue to go when I can. As far as a "ski area" goes, I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But I also recognize that it's not the place for everyone - actually not for most everyone.

[Mulletizer]

This is possibly the most rediculous ski-related thing I have ever read. An "extreme" ski "resort" prosecuting its own customers - for skiing in the wrong place? WTF happened to letting people judge risk for themselves - and pay the consequence (death, obviously, or someone else's and deal with consequences of that) if they fuck up? They call it "unguided" - apparently it's policed by a childminder though. Sorry to be a prick and state the obvious but this wouldn't happen in most other countries... One of the most absurd things I have ever heard.

If I hadn't had great experiences of skiing in the US this would really put me off ever going there to ski. Permanently. It's not really a question of "people" suing "ski resorts" anymore, is it?

[grskier]

To me this whole thing seems to be settled by the common sense rule that if the resort closes areas, then they should mark the closures clearly, especially if by virtue of their closure, they are making it illegal to ski in a particular area. It's the same thing as if the state put up an illegible speed limit sign and you got a ticket for speeding it, even though you couldn't read the sign.

I'd agree with this, I think Silverton dropped the ball with this, but the guy who wrote this still rubs me the wrong way a little. It seems that there is a little ignorance is bliss being played by his side, along with a lot of retrospective self afformation. All that being said, it does seem like Silverton might have their blinders on a little too tight looking toward their goal permit.
I have to say though, we skied Silverton last year, when they were setting up the ropes for unguided and it got me thinking. OK, unguided v. guided here makes it more resort than BC because now there are ropes. I can see where they are coming from in some respect as far as allowing the guided groups access areas that unguided people can not, just from a safety and liability standpoint. They do have some liability in all of this, but they do have to stear their clientele in the right directions if thats how they want to do it. The guy almost makes a small case against himself in some ways sticking to the BC experience and knowledge, then talking about resort style closures and whatnot. I see wrong on both sides, but more on Silverton

[grskier]

This is possibly the most rediculous ski-related thing I have ever read. An "extreme" ski "resort" prosecuting its own customers - for skiing in the wrong place? WTF happened to letting people judge risk for themselves - and pay the consequence (death, obviously, or someone else's and deal with consequences of that) if they fuck up? They call it "unguided" - apparently it's policed by a childminder though. Sorry to be a prick and state the obvious but this wouldn't happen in most other countries... One of the most absurd things I have ever heard.

If I hadn't had great experiences of skiing in the US this would really put me off ever going there to ski. Permanently. It's not really a question of "people" suing "ski resorts" anymore, is it?

Big difference as to what resorts here need to do to control the masses...

Sad in some ways, but may actually curb more sad stories of jongs accidentally hucking way too much meat.

[Kya]

...Is there some sort of mountain map with closures that customers are supposed to be studying before heading up? I feel like something's missing here. How were they supposed to know what was closed if it ain't roped?

I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a quick fix to such a big problem, and would not require lots of man power. Just print out maps in the morning. I would assume that Silverton made the "off-limits zones" known to the unguided riders at the beginning of the day. If so, then riders screwed up. If not, then Silverton totally screwed up......big time.

I'm curious how unguided riders are introduced to the rules and excpectations at the beginning of each day.

[Greguar]

I sure would like to hear Silvertons take on this, I'd also like to see some of the footage from this guys helmet cam, especially of the bamboo that was supposed to be indicative of the terrain being closed.

It sounds like these are actual runs at Silverton so I don't know how you would know not to ski them if there weren't any closed signs.

I've been there twice, once guided and once unguided, both times great experiences. We never had any trouble knowing what was closed and opened. There were ropes everywhere! Both times were also later in the year.

I did have one hairy incident involving a ~8' by ~20' cornice dropping about 30 feet off a sheer cliff less than 3 feet to my left, actually it was triggered by me planting my pole into where the eventual fracture line was. I was 2 people behind the guide and he had mentioned to us to stay on the rock, I found the situation pretty exceptable given the nature of the place.