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  1. #51
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    I've said it before, we do not get, and will not get for some time, the best candidates. On the conservative side, Dole (Mr. and Ms.), Kemp, and Christine Whitman have all been great presidental candidates. Only Dole made it to the canididacy. W/ the big $$$ machines funding the campaigns, we'll never again see the best candidates up for election. I don't even know if campaign finance reform can change it at this point.

    For a long time I truely beleived the first black or female president would come from the convervative party. I'm tending to not feel that way anymore. This party has kind of lost itself in all the moral highhorse bullshit...

  2. #52
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    IMHO, Dole is a great indicator of the failures of presidential campaign machinery. His "presence" during the campaign when he was being spin-doctored was enough to scare anybody away. His appearances afterward on SNL and other talk shows showed a completely and utterly different guy.

    BTW, Dole has his skeletons, too.

  3. #53
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    Originally posted by 365wp

    For example, during Bush's campaign he actually played up the fact that he didn't drink any more, that he had a slight drinking problem and overcame it. It made him look better to the voters. If a candidate is willing to exaggerate a flaw to appeal to the people, that's a pretty good indication of what the people are asking for.

    The only thing exaggerated in that was the severity of the problem. It was a combination of alcohol and cocaine addictions.

    Originally posted by Alex P. Keaton

    The problem is, as wp alludes, that most people don't understand the real issues and their various potential consequences, so they base their political choices on moral judgment and their intuitive like or dislike of a candidate. If I'm the average person of voting age in this country, I don't understand what the big deal is about having a deficeit, because there's no entry for my share of it on my tax form or projection of what my taxes will be in 40 years as a result of it. But I DO know that it's bad to cheat on your wife. Boom! The choice is easy. Personally, I don't really care about the "moral character" of my elected officials as long as nobody's getting hurt, because I don't see the point in basing political decisions on totally subjective issues of morality. If John Kerry having an affair contributed to the decline of public schools in Massachusetts or something, that'd be a problem. Otherwise it's a non-starter. I DO have a problem with someone lying about what they've done when asked, but frankly I don't see why the question should even come up. There's a lot more important things to talk about.

    This is an excellent point Alex. People use pretty unissue related decisions when voting.

    We shared the site on here recently that chose you a candidate based solely on how their voting records relate to your beliefs and people didn't like that. I know it was a far fetched concept for people - voting based on conscience. Nice.

  4. #54
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    Worthless to think about, but if Sen. John Heinz was alive, he'd be on his way to the white house.

  5. #55
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    Originally posted by 365wp
    IMHO, Dole is a great indicator of the failures of presidential campaign machinery. His "presence" during the campaign when he was being spin-doctored was enough to scare anybody away. His appearances afterward on SNL and other talk shows showed a completely and utterly different guy.
    I was struck by that at the time as well. If he would have acted casual and like a regular guy he would have done two terms. Instead they (meaning the media, but I think also his own camp)had him as this angry stern grandfater figure. Pretty sad we get chumps for candidates anymore.

  6. #56
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    Originally posted by 1080Rider
    I was struck by that at the time as well. If he would have acted casual and like a regular guy he would have done two terms. Instead they (meaning the media, but I think also his own camp)had him as this angry stern grandfater figure. Pretty sad we get chumps for candidates anymore.
    You're high. He was going up against the most popular president of the 20th Century.

    I know the GOP tries to brush this aside, and the Dems too because it highlites the abject failure that was the Gore campaign, but exit polls in 2000 showed that had Clinton been able to run again he would have gotten over 60% of the vote.

  7. #57
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    Originally posted by Tippster
    You're high. He was going up against the most popular president of the 20th Century.
    I don't think that was the case when he ran against Dole, and I don't think he was the most popular of the 20th century, but whatever. He was still a dipshit and soiled the office.

  8. #58
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    Originally posted by Mountain Junkie
    Where's Nader? We all know he's not going to be laying any pipe.

    Edit....unnecessary bashing type comment. Sorry.

    P.S. It remains OK to mock the French.
    Last edited by irul&ublo; 02-12-2004 at 04:41 PM.
    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  9. #59
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    Originally posted by 1080Rider
    I'm going to disagree here. We want a person in the white house we can look up to. When you soil the office you tarnish the entire American name. In reality the president is a figurehead. Really doesn't have that much power aside from declaring war. If there's anyone in the country kids should be able to look up to its the president. I remember that's how it was when I was younger. Can't say that about the last two presidents and it doesn't look like its gettin' any better. I don't want someone in the whitehouse who has lacking morals. And I think cheatin' on your spouse is pretty shitty morraly. I had NO respect for clinton. I thought he was nothing more than a used car saleman who squeeked by w/ the Ross Perot thing, he proved to be exactly that w/ all his shananigans. You can say a lot about Bush but at least he keeps his ship clean (home life). Its understandable to have kids or relatives who are shady (Billy Carter) but don't do that shit yourself if you're president. Just my $.02
    How about lying to the American people to lure them into war? That's WAY dirtier for a president than getting a blow job in the oval office, if you ask me.

  10. #60
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    Originally posted by KevinDineen
    How about lying to the American people to lure them into war?
    This may not be new- in fact, it may very well be a tactic borrowed from FDR (WWII) and Winston Churchill (WWI and WWII).
    ˇÓrale, vato!

  11. #61
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    this just in: gay matt drudge pulls all coverage of the intern, now going with Clark endorses Kerry
    "It is not the result that counts! It is not the result but the spirit! Not what - but how. Not what has been attained - but at what price.
    - A. Solzhenitsyn

  12. #62
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    What about lying about getting the blowjob under oath and almost getting impeached? If its proven that Bush lied to the public knowingly then he deserves what he gets. I haven't seen any smoking gun at this point, but then again, I tend to not watch the news. My whole point is that we don't get decent candidates and I think the president should be someone who you can look up to. You don't like Bush's official choices, that's politics, lying under oath in depositions is a moral flaw.

  13. #63
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    Originally posted by 1080Rider
    What about lying about getting the blowjob under oath and almost getting impeached? If its proven that Bush lied to the public knowingly then he deserves what he gets. I haven't seen any smoking gun at this point, but then again, I tend to not watch the news. My whole point is that we don't get decent candidates and I think the president should be someone who you can look up to. You don't like Bush's official choices, that's politics, lying under oath in depositions is a moral flaw.
    I never defended Clinton. But yes, lying about a blow job is not as bad as lying to convince people to send their children (theirs, not his) to go die in the desert. One is the work of a horny man. The other is the work of a tyrant.

  14. #64
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    Originally posted by 1080Rider
    He was still a dipshit and soiled the office.
    No. The dipshits resonsible for soiling the office were the right-wing kooks who tried to nail him for everything that had nothing to do with the office.
    [quote][//quote]

  15. #65
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    Originally posted by The AD
    No I was being dead serious. Since the guy was over there risking his life I'd say he definitely had the right to state his opinion on the war when he got back home.
    Well speaking as a Veteran. Association with Jane Fonda makes all of our bloods boil. The woman sat on a 88 and pulled the trigger sending a round going down range to kill American Marines. (This is an undisputable fact). It aint good for Kerry on this matter.

    Now sure every person has a right to protest. But Kerry broke the first Cardinal sin when it comes to military brothers. We had men over there risking their lives. He called his fellow brothers in arms "Baby killers", and then burned a flag he swore to defend while American Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airman were dying for that same flag he put a match too. And you expect us to follow him. Heh It's fine to protest but you don't disrespect your brothers in arms that are dying for your freedom to be able to protest.

    Like I said before. The American public is being fucked by both parties candidates without the pleasure of a reach around again. The Democrats and Republicans haven't been for the people or by the people for a damn long time. Both have their hands in special interests wallets with a death grip.

  16. #66
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    Originally posted by 1080Rider
    but then again, I tend to not watch the news.
    Now some of your uninformed opinions are starting to make sense.
    You want to act high and mighty about lies, look at people (GB 1+2) who lied about matters of state to the people and their representatives, not BJs (BC).
    [quote][//quote]

  17. #67
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    Originally posted by TJ.Brk
    Well speaking as a Veteran. Association with Jane Fonda makes all of our bloods boil. The woman sat on a 88 and pulled the trigger sending a round going down range to kill American Marines. (This is an undisputable fact). It aint good for Kerry on this matter.

    Now sure every person has a right to protest. But Kerry broke the first Cardinal sin when it comes to military brothers. We had men over there risking their lives. He called his fellow brothers in arms "Baby killers", and then burned a flag he swore to defend while American Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airman were dying for that same flag he put a match too. And you expect us to follow him. Heh It's fine to protest but you don't disrespect your brothers in arms that are dying for your freedom to be able to protest.

    Like I said before. The American public is being fucked by both parties candidates without the pleasure of a reach around again. The Democrats and Republicans haven't been for the people or by the people for a damn long time. Both have their hands in special interests wallets with a death grip.
    Are you drunk?
    The trumpet scatters its awful sound Over the graves of all lands Summoning all before the throne

    Death and mankind shall be stunned When Nature arises To give account before the Judge

  18. #68
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    Dex each side is going to have an heated arguement for each point of view. The office of the President of the United States of America is one that is supposed to be treated with dignity and decorum. Clinton really didn't do that. And to be honest niether has GW.

    We can set here and sling mud all night long. Or we can finally do what is needed. Say fuck you to both parties and once again find a President we can all be proud of.

    And currently our best hopes are the Current Sec of State, or the Current Governor of New Mexico. But sadly neither will ever run.

  19. #69
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    TJ- While I wouldn't want your well placed anger at Hanoi Jane to be abated any:

    I would point out that she was simply photographed in a AAA gun and didn't actually shoot artillery at anyone.

    And while I also understand your frustration at him for his activist ways, I would offer up the thought though that VVAW was pretty important in ending the war. Ending that war = a really good thing for the country and specifically for the armed forces. Do the ends justify the means? That's always the question.
    "It is not the result that counts! It is not the result but the spirit! Not what - but how. Not what has been attained - but at what price.
    - A. Solzhenitsyn

  20. #70
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    "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." (and vice versa)

    -Pierre Elliot Trudeau

  21. #71
    Blurred Elevens Guest
    Originally posted by KQ




    AND - if your church won't let you have a same sex marriage you take it up with them or start your own church. There is nothing wrong with ppl making a commitment to each other regardless of sex or race. Moral issues (which is what the religious ppl turn this into) are not government issues (IMHO).

    I suppose tax cuts, etc for marriage aren't a government issue either.

    Making a commitment to others is fine. Just don't be upset that the government doesn't recognise gay marriage, marrying in the family, etc.

    I don't care if you make love to your dog KQ, but don't ask me to give out my tax dollars in recognising your "institution" with your K9.

  22. #72
    Blurred Elevens Guest
    Originally posted by TJ.Brk
    But sadly neither will ever run.
    Pretty sweet you're running though....Let's see, ex-vet, live in Canada, running for US Office, and very capable of fucking up a cup of coffee.....you got my vote playboy!

  23. #73
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    Originally posted by lemon boy
    TJ- While I wouldn't want your well placed anger at Hanoi Jane to be abated any:

    I would point out that she was simply photographed in a AAA gun and didn't actually shoot artillery at anyone.

    Actually there is newsreal footage of her pulling on the charging handle. I've seen it. You see Marines keep a good record of history. There was a division of Marines in a certain valley that her shell went to. Even traced down to the second of firing, path of the shell, and moment of impact. The Hanoi Gov't made many announcements about this as well. Hanoi even broadcasted Janes: "Glorious actions in salute to the Peoples of Vietnam against the murderous invaders" all over the P77's radios that Marines would listen to in the valley that they were surrounded, in which that shell landed, marking the signal for a daytime artillery barrage. With planned assults on the 2 northern marker hills 1click from the end of the landing strip. Out of respect for her father it was well known that many strings were pulled, so that the whole matter was dropped, hushed up because of the politics of the time.


    And blurred. I make great coffee. Mr Johnnywannabebad
    Last edited by TJ.Brk; 02-12-2004 at 08:38 PM.

  24. #74
    Blurred Elevens Guest
    Originally posted by TJ.Brk


    And blurred. I make great coffee. Mr Johnnywannabebad
    Remind me when I get half as badass as you to move to Canuckia...

  25. #75
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    Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
    I suppose tax cuts, etc for marriage aren't a government issue either.
    What tax cut for being married? You're paying more because, assuming you both work, your combined income goes up putting you in a higher tax bracket. I'm sure as hell not paying less in taxes since I got married, that's for fucking sure.

    Now giving a tax credit for having a child, that pisses me off. You should have to pay MORE. I mean presumably your kid is using some of the benefits the taxes are going to pay for.

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