Jumbo Glacier Resort

[LeeLau]

for real?
this has been the busiest whistler has been in 5 years. busiest January ever in terms of occupancy levels. we picked up a massive amount of last minute US tourist. I havent seen this many 'mericans in a few years.

Ski hill visitor numbers are off by significant percentage points as of two weeks ago mostly in mid-week; they're about the same seasonally averaged. More to the point that the number of skiers always falls off at this time of the year. Weekend numbers are at seasonal averages. Note I'm not talking about occupancy levels but actual ski hill numbers.

pow11 is doing too much weekend skiing!

I heard it said that somebody from the Whitetooth crew started discussing expanding the ski area a a party. Next thing you know, Oberti jumped in and threw a few lifts up. Ballast Nedam had to do another project in Canada as a part of the Confederation Bridge project, that project was KH. The rest is history......

Thx for the reminder. Ballast Needam was always a construction co first; not a ski hill owner/op

Hey all,
I am from Valemount. Canoe Mountain is effectively dead, although the proponent got as far as securing some land at the base of the mountain. But this land is useless to him unless he first builds a gondola......not gonna happen soon. Mike Weigele is based out of Blue River (one hour south of Valemount), and he has a ski hill proposal called Saddle Mountain. It would be comparable to Revelstoke, but not quite as big. Amazing snow though. But the real ski development in Valemount you are all referring to has already been filed and a formal proposal is being drawn up as we speak. It is being planned by Oberto Oberti, same as the Jumbo and Kicking Horse, and would in fact be bigger than the Jumbo. It will also have the world's longest continuous in-bounds vertical (2300metres) and snow comparable to Reve, with far more sunlight. It will also feature summer skiing on two separate glaciers with 700 and 400vert metres respectively. The top lift will drop skiers and sightseers at an elevation of 3200m. Bottom elevation just over 800. Ambitious project, but alot going for it, since all of the million busloads of tourist destined for the Colombia Icefields already pass through (and some even stay) in Valemount. The top lift will feature an amazing view of Mt.Robson similar to that of the Matterhorn in Zermatt. There is also an impressive view of the expansive Premiere Range Icefield, and Sir Wilfrid Laurier (3500m) is only 3km from the top lift offload at 3200m. Check it out on Google! An entirely new class of resort for North America, and for all you people who think Whistler is an amazing "world-class" resort, time to get outside of your bubble! The rest of the world simply does not agree! Great party town, shitty skiing!
In addition, the airport in Valemount already has an expansion plan in place for a 6000ft runway (currently 4000 with lights, satellite and fuel) and the highways to and from Valemount are amazingly flat, straight and never closed.

Thx for that vignette. FWIW I think the Valemount area makes much more sense than Jumbo for a resort but it's still going to be a tough haul. There's already local population there from which jobs can be drawn and local town can benefit. Plus the tourism infrastructure (sledders, Mt Robson visitors etc) is already there in some rudimentary fashion.

- Where would it be? I'd hope it would be on the W Monashees side where there'd be more snow.

[dawnchairy]

Thanks for the clarification L7 and BCMH.

Valemount Dude, I agree that these new resorts could well be beautiful places with great skiing, but the reality of the Whistler bubble is that it is close to both Vancouver and Seattle and it has international recognition. This exists independently of the quality of the resort, which is a matter of opinion. KH is a great resort for rippers, not so much for families; who you are and how you ski determines what you think is a quality resort.

The cost of dragging services out to the middle of nowhere really concerns me.

[LeeLau]

Jumbo government approved plan fwiw http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/resort_...GR-MP_2010.pdf

[skibiker]

Hey all, ... and for all you people who think Whistler is an amazing "world-class" resort, time to get outside of your bubble! The rest of the world simply does not agree! Great party town, shitty skiing!

Wow, Whistler is "shitty skiing!"? Although I am not sure if I am feeding a troll or not, I am sure that the collective faithful here does not agree. And besides, the GSA skis at Whistler.

[gramboh]

I'm still confused about this. Skier visits look flat over recent years, especially destination visits (at least based on WB's disclosures and other Canada West data), real estate has not been a pleasant experience for KH or Revy developers, so what the hell is the upside to get this off the ground? Is it the power project?

CBC also noted that no one from the government bothered coming out to the valley to announce the deal, it was done in Victoria. That probably pissed a few folks off.

[DougW]

I look at it they had to shit or get off the pot. Taking so long is worse than saying no. But if they went through all the hoops then why not approve. Its not he gov't job to determine if a good project $ wise.

But the question is now will it be built now or near future or will it sit ready to go permit wise until econ condition improve.

[BCMtnHound]

The issue with the long-standing approval timeframe has to do with the public interest test. This is usually the case whenever there is transfer of public (crown) land over to private interest. Remember that with the vast majority of crown land development, the ownership of the land remains with the crown (whether that be a large mine, a tree farm license, or a controlled recreation area like a ski hill). In this case, there is private real-estate involved, so even if all the regulatory hurdles are passed, the government must still defend the project as being in the public's best interest. This is usually based on socio-economic factors at a very high level (regional if not provincial, depending on the scope of the project). With such a charged debate around such a development, with the arguement being largely 6 of one and a half dozen of the other, that public interest test is very difficult for the government to defend politically. Case in point, the recent reversion of private land for development taken out of the Tree Farm Licenses on Vancouver Island.

I suspect in this case, given that the popularity of the governing majority party is in decline, with an election looming, that party is much more willing to take larger risks with public opinion than they may be at other times in their mandate, hoping it will pay off in some sort of dividend in the future.

[LeeLau]

I suspect in this case, given that the popularity of the governing majority party is in decline, with an election looming, that party is much more willing to take larger risks with public opinion than they may be at other times in their mandate, hoping it will pay off in some sort of dividend in the future.

What could that dividend be? There's a real chance Bill Bennett will die on the sword for this. On the one hand the governing Libs want to promote industry by way of this approval yet on the other hand they give a big FU to Telus re the Pavco BCPlace naming opportunity. They seem to be in such perpetual crisis mode

[LeeLau]

Jumbo road proposal - http://www.jumboglacierresort.com/do...RoadIssues.pdf

Prep'ed by McElhanney - they're considered to be credible

The access route follows existing mining and forestry roads. A new main alignment has been
chosen among existing routes, eliminating creek crossings. The road from Panorama to the
Mineral King Mine is approximately 19 km and from the mine to the sawmill site at the
proposed resort location will be approximately 16 km. Total will be 35 km.

• McElhanney’s projected road costs for improved access to JGR are for road design speeds in
the range of 50 to 60km/h, depending on the road sections. They are comparable to the cost
of the road upgrade to Kicking Horse Mountain Resort, which was in the range of $200,000
to $250,000 per comparable kilometre (not including the hairpin turn, which is not required
for the JGR access). The order of magnitude of the upgrades required from Panorama to the
JGR resort base is in the range of $8 to $12 million.
• The proponent for JGR has stated from the beginning that it was prepared to pay for the road
upgrades, and that the project is capable of financing the road construction.

[BCMtnHound]

What could that dividend be? There's a real chance Bill Bennett will die on the sword for this. On the one hand the governing Libs want to promote industry by way of this approval yet on the other hand they give a big FU to Telus re the Pavco BCPlace naming opportunity. They seem to be in such perpetual crisis mode

If I could figure out that dividend angle, I could live more like you, Lee!
But I would suspect increased corporate donations to the party coffers is a primary one, with perhaps an attempt to weaken the support of the NDP in the neighbouring ridings being the other. But as you mentioned, it is a bit chaotic since Grodo resigned and Cristy took on the reigns.

Bill Bennett (Lib) is the MLA for Kootenay East (Cranbrook) and has always been a big proponent of large development. He took some big lumps when he spoke out against Gordo during the HST debacle - not sure where he stands in the party itself ATM. Jumbo is actually in the riding of Columbia R-Revy, under MLA Norm Macdonald (NDP), with the other bordering riding being Nelson-Creston, held by Michelle Mungal (NDP). Not sure what Mr Bennett will lose one way or another politically given his statements - his voter base in Cranbrook (and the coal mines in the Elk Valley) is pretty strong. The minister in charge of the file (Steve Thomson, Kelowna-Mission) is also reasonably secure in his riding.

FWIW - trying to keep the discussion on the non-partisan slant, sorry to those who might be sensitive

[BCMtnHound]

Jumbo road proposal - http://www.jumboglacierresort.com/do...RoadIssues.pdf

Prep'ed by McElhanney - they're considered to be credible

The access route follows existing mining and forestry roads. A new main alignment has been
chosen among existing routes, eliminating creek crossings. The road from Panorama to the
Mineral King Mine is approximately 19 km and from the mine to the sawmill site at the
proposed resort location will be approximately 16 km. Total will be 35 km.

• McElhanney’s projected road costs for improved access to JGR are for road design speeds in
the range of 50 to 60km/h, depending on the road sections. They are comparable to the cost
of the road upgrade to Kicking Horse Mountain Resort, which was in the range of $200,000
to $250,000 per comparable kilometre (not including the hairpin turn, which is not required
for the JGR access). The order of magnitude of the upgrades required from Panorama to the
JGR resort base is in the range of $8 to $12 million.
• The proponent for JGR has stated from the beginning that it was prepared to pay for the road
upgrades, and that the project is capable of financing the road construction.

The current roads past the public roads managed under Highways are either Forest Service roads or non-status wilderness roads (liability ultimately held by the crown). Under the current ministry and regs responsible for the development, they would remain a crown resource, with the resort issued a Road Use Permit (FSR) and/or a Road Permit (activation of non-status roads). In the case of the FSR, the maintenance stipulations within the RUP would specify who will be responsible for what - mostly a negotiated affair, with some funding coming from the crown and some from the resort. A Road Permit will leave the entire cost to the developer. This may change if the Resource Road Act ever gets through the legislature, but I doubt its enactment will change much. Also, FSR's do not revert to Road Permits, but with the private land development, they may convert the roads into the Highways Act. Therefore, the developer stating that they will take on all costs is a bit of a red herring in this case.

[Alkares]

Forgive me for being the "hippie" here, but does anyone see anything wrong with this endless development? These proposed places for development may not be "pristine", but putting more worthless resorts, and the endless amount of un-productive real-estate that goes along with them, will destroy the beauty of these places forever. I have never understood the developer mentality, "hmm, this is a beautiful place, lets put a bunch of houses and a golf course here".

After 2 years in Europe, I would say personally that I think I can see the reason why the winters are shorter here. The vast deforestation for cattle grazing, the desire to put ski lifts virtually everywhere. There are so many roads built in every little valley, and the many cities that have sprung up in small alpine valleys as well. The glaciers are rapidly melting, and in some places they have been covering the glaciers with plastic to prevent them from melting further. With North America chasing the same dreams, this too, will be their fate as well.

The thing I don't understand, is if you can see it coming, why not try and change it? Human's inability to see an actual problem and address it amazes me to no end. God help us all.

[Garbanzo]

... and for all you people who think Whistler is an amazing "world-class" resort, time to get outside of your bubble! The rest of the world does agree! Great party town, even better skiing!

Valemount sounds like plausible idea. A bit in the middle of nowhere. But if the skiing is good (better than all the rest around Banff) and they can make some life there other than 2 good bars and a quickie food stop ... call me then. Until then, I have a hard-on for little small ski areas that get amazing snow and ++vibes++ from people that are local, friendly and ski like the shit.

Oh, props to Valemount dude for recognizing an awesome ski destination when he skis it! Me also thinks Whistler is pretty amazing (of the 35 ski resorts I have visited in Canada and the US).

[powder11]

I'd say you're nuts, and that outside of a few powdery weekends, they overall really haven't been that bad.

Maybe by Whistler standards, but Blackcomb was much busier this season... it kind of felt like a day at Whistler!

[garyfromterrace]

...The glaciers are rapidly melting, and in some places they have been covering the glaciers with plastic to prevent them from melting further. With North America chasing the same dreams, this too, will be their fate as well. .....

So I'm pretty much on the fence on this one. As much as I'd like to see some year round skiing in our province (and country) and some sick inbounds vert, there does seem to be a lack of skiers on and at our existing resorts. As one maggot brought up a few pages back, do the grizzly bear concerns have merit? Construction jobs and full time employment are important economic drivers to our economy too.

I am also a bit of a tree hugger though, so therein lays my wishy-washy opinion on this thing.

So here's a question for glaciology mags - if the resort does go ahead and there is all this groomer and skier compaction of the snow pack atop the glaciers, would this compacted snow slow down the glacial recession in this area?

[moose pit]

Garbonzo the last thing you ever want is the quickie service in Valemont. Stick to the deep fried cheese cake in the pub (being a fat bastard with the diabetus is probably easier to explain to the missus than a misbegotten bastard and a case of the herp)

[skibiker]

Some of you seem to be saying that you are against these new proposed resorts because they will not attract a large number of people. So I guess that when you pick a place to go ski, you pick the one that has the most people, the longest lift lines, the most jongs. If someone wants to open up a hill or resort that has good terrain and great snow, but is not predicted by many to be very busy, I will not try to stop them. I and people that I know consider small crowds to be a plus for a ski area, not a minus. I do, in fact, not recall reading any TRs in which the poster complained that there were not enough people, that he wished the lift lines were longer. So which is it?

[Garbanzo]

Garbonzo the last thing you ever want is the quickie service in Valemont. Stick to the deep fried cheese cake in the pub (being a fat bastard with the diabetus is probably easier to explain to the missus than a misbegotten bastard and a case of the herp)

My older brother got diabetes recently. He is a motor-head. Serves him right for sitting on his ass all day on a sled. And the Herp - now that is disgusting. Maybe that's how they named nearby 'Yellowhead Pass'. (Sorry, I just had to do that gross-funny there No insult intended).

My gigolo self will not be much help to them in Valemount - unless Mrs Wapta calls me near. I dig small cute girls like Ms. Nelson, Ms. Fernie (et al. Ms. Whitefish, Ms. Red, Ms. Revy even) and especially the well-paying larger-but-athletic and well-endowed Mrs. Blackcomb.

... too many girls, not enough $$ or time.

Jumbo - seriously? Where in Canada has a somewhat-mega resort ever been built without the required full city infrastructure already in place and a good source of traffic nearby? Maybe Whistler or Mt St Ann or Blue Mountain (Collingwood,ON). But they developed v.e.r.y s.l.o.w.l.y to get where they are today. I smell rich Europeans and desperate BC Liberals being hoodwinked by investment firms. And all those lifts they are promising. I will buy that pooh when Revy starts installing more lifts as planned.

Summer skiing? Me thinks maybe the 1% do that in Canada. Much more attractive to get out and do other diabetes thwarting activities while the alpine flowers blossom.

[Hugh Conway]

Some of you seem to be saying that you are against these new proposed resorts because they will not attract a large number of people. So I guess that when you pick a place to go ski, you pick the one that has the most people, the longest lift lines, the most jongs. If someone wants to open up a hill or resort that has good terrain and great snow, but is not predicted by many to be very busy, I will not try to stop them. I and people that I know consider small crowds to be a plus for a ski area, not a minus. I do, in fact, not recall reading any TRs in which the poster complained that there were not enough people, that he wished the lift lines were longer. So which is it?

It's too simple for a fucktard like you to understand.

Developing a resort that won't get enough visitors to sustain it is the worst of all worlds - no lifts - no wilderness - just fucked.

[iscariot]

So here's a question for glaciology mags - if the resort does go ahead and there is all this groomer and skier compaction of the snow pack atop the glaciers, would this compacted snow slow down the glacial recession in this area?

No. The albedo will decrease, and it will melt faster.

[f2f]

No. The albedo will decrease, and it will melt faster.

far worse, the increase in the number of beer farts emitted per square ft. will create a localized greenhouse gas bubble and will, literally and figuratively, stink up the place.

[iscariot]

far worse, the increase in the number of beer farts emitted per square ft. will create a localized greenhouse gas bubble and will, literally and figuratively, stink up the place.

There goes the neighbourhood.

[Black]

Forgive me for being the "hippie" here, but does anyone see anything wrong with this endless development? These proposed places for development may not be "pristine", but putting more worthless resorts, and the endless amount of un-productive real-estate that goes along with them, will destroy the beauty of these places forever. I have never understood the developer mentality, "hmm, this is a beautiful place, lets put a bunch of houses and a golf course here".

After 2 years in Europe, I would say personally that I think I can see the reason why the winters are shorter here. The vast deforestation for cattle grazing, the desire to put ski lifts virtually everywhere. There are so many roads built in every little valley, and the many cities that have sprung up in small alpine valleys as well. The glaciers are rapidly melting, and in some places they have been covering the glaciers with plastic to prevent them from melting further. With North America chasing the same dreams, this too, will be their fate as well.

The thing I don't understand, is if you can see it coming, why not try and change it? Human's inability to see an actual problem and address it amazes me to no end. God help us all.

I am not a tree hugger but I agree with you. I am against the development of Jumbo for two reasons, one if there is no real demand then leave the place be. And 2, just leave it wild, yes, it’s not pristine but it’s recovering from the sawmill, logging etc.. I hunt elk in the mountains of South Kananaskis and they were heavily mined for coal and logged early last century.. But those scars are hardly noticeable, some hints of roads, but very wild and beautiful and almost completely recovered (to the eye)..

Skibiker, apart from key weekends like Family Day etc., lift lines are almost non-existent on Paradise Chair and Summit Platter (all I care about) at Lake Louise and no lift lines at Panorama. So from my sampling, I don’t see the demand here for another destination resort (for domestic or international). If anything, expansion should happen at existing resorts like Louise. Parks Canada will never let that happen, but I’d love to see an upper Larch chair servicing Purple Bowl, the Shaft and upper Lipallian. Keep the filter (platter) on Summit but open up West Bowl, Semi-C with a platter out of the pipestone drainage to ski out Maintenance/Star Wars to the Jungle. And that is just 1.5 lifts to open up some sweet terrain and take the pressure off the rest of the resort. Tear down Whitehorn Lodge, add a major lodge at the top of Top of the World and a Coffee Shack at Gondi Top and expand Temple Lodge.. There, now Louise would be the resort it deserves to be… Maybe I should just wish for more snow instead…

[plugboots]

for all you people who think Whistler is an amazing "world-class" resort, time to get outside of your bubble! The rest of the world simply does not agree! Great party town, shitty skiing!

Hey valemountjong, in my 10 or so trips to W/B, I would say most people I meet find the place to be world class. I like skiing there, and so does my beginner brother and his family from Green Bay, WI. As N. American destinations go, it's pretty fucking cool. It ain't the Hautes Alpes, or whatever, but nothing in NA is. For a new destination resort to survive, the aging fat farts, (they have the money, BTW), will need to go there. Good luck on getting those people to this place.

[Black]

Anybody catch this Extreme Ice NOVA episode last night on pbs?

Timely.