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  1. #376
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    Meh, that last mumbo jumbo paragraph is definitely some religioulus enviro hopeful BS and not reality based material.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by simple View Post
    Snowmobile = rich ????

    News to me. Guess all us motivated dirt bags are rich. Must be in life and not money.
    Probably right. Maintaining a bile while living in a rich resort town just sounds exhausting to me but good on ya for that motivations.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  3. #378
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    The guy behind Jumbo Resort is Vancouver architect Alberto Oberti who is also behind the stalled for lack of investors, Valemont Mtn Resort. It;s master plan has several red flags, not the least of which is Oberti and his lack of credibility.

    Oberti also developed Kicking Horse so he is the one responsible for the flawed KH lift system.

  4. #379
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    Jumbo Glacier Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    The guy behind Jumbo Resort is Vancouver architect Alberto Oberti who is also behind the stalled for lack of investors, Valemont Mtn Resort. It;s master plan has several red flags, not the least of which is Oberti and his lack of credibility.

    Oberti also developed Kicking Horse so he is the one responsible for the flawed KH lift system.
    I think the initial lift was to get one in. Real estate sales stalled which prevented the money from flowing to build the rest out. Murray Edwards, the current owner, is a control freak and a penny pincher. He wonít commit the funds unless he gets the funds for new lifts from property development. And no one is buying recreational property these days.

    While the environmentalist comment at the end of the article is total propaganda, I personally donít see how Jumbo could be viable. While Cranbrook expanded their runway to allow for larger passenger jets to land, it is still over two hours from Jumbo, and would be over four hours from Calgary.

    These projects also require real estate buyers to supply the capital funding for the rest of the development, like lifts and such. Boomers, who were the engine behind a lot of recreational real estate purchases in the 90ís and 2000ís are now in divestment mode, and Millenials and Gen X and Y donít seem to be earning the excess cash needed to buy these properties.

    Panorama Resort, which is on the way to Jumbo has a ton of properties for sale. Last year there were two sales of single family homes at the resort. The only property with any liquidity is 2 bedroom condos for under $200k. A neighbour recently put their very nice house on the market for 1.8MM and the agent told them there are four other properties at the resort for sale and they are seeing zero action, so expect a long wait.

    No real estate sales, no viable resort.




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  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by dufferdan View Post
    I think the initial lift was to get one in. Real estate sales stalled which prevented the money from flowing to build the rest out. Murray Edwards, the current owner, is a control freak and a penny pincher. He won’t commit the funds unless he gets the funds for new lifts from property development. And no one is buying recreational property these days.

    While the environmentalist comment at the end of the article is total propaganda, I personally don’t see how Jumbo could be viable. While Cranbrook expanded their runway to allow for larger passenger jets to land, it is still over two hours from Jumbo, and would be over four hours from Calgary.

    These projects also require real estate buyers to supply the capital funding for the rest of the development, like lifts and such. Boomers, who were the engine behind a lot of recreational real estate purchases in the 90’s and 2000’s are now in divestment mode, and Millenials and Gen X and Y don’t seem to be earning the excess cash needed to buy these properties.

    Panorama Resort, which is on the way to Jumbo has a ton of properties for sale. Last year there were two sales of single family homes at the resort. The only property with any liquidity is 2 bedroom condos for under $200k. A neighbour recently put their very nice house on the market for 1.8MM and the agent told them there are four other properties at the resort for sale and they are seeing zero action, so expect a long wait.

    No real estate sales, no viable resort.




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    When Kicking Horse opened with a gondola covering 4k vert. feet and NO mid terminal, I knew it was being developed by someone with NO ski industry experience.

    People are buying ski resort real estate, just not at places like KH or Revy which have very little intermediate terrain and thus are not very suitable for most families.. Expansion of both lifts and home building has been happening recently at Red, Whitewater, Silver Star and Sun Peaks.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    The guy behind Jumbo Resort is Vancouver architect Alberto Oberti who is also behind the stalled for lack of investors, Valemont Mtn Resort. It;s master plan has several red flags...

    Oberti also developed Kicking Horse so he is the one responsible for the flawed KH lift system.
    Just curious, what are some the of the red flags? From a personal, myopic viewpoint, I was kinda hopin' the Valemount project would go ahead...would be the closest potential big mountain skiing for northwest b.c.'ers.
    What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    Just curious, what are some the of the red flags? From a personal, myopic viewpoint, I was kinda hopin' the Valemount project would go ahead...would be the closest potential big mountain skiing for northwest b.c.'ers.
    Valemont Resort Problems:
    No local population of day skiers to speak of. (Revy has 5 times the population. and it is not enough)
    Not enough hotels/motels so lots of people would stay in Jasper and likely ski some days at Marmot.
    VMR plans on only 2,000 beds at build out is not enough skier visits per year to pay for lift system.
    Only 150 staff including upper mgt is not enough for even a medium sized resort (Sun Peaks has 1,000 staff)
    A chairlift with no runs under it takes guests from the parking lot to the ski village. Not a good idea to have $5M of initial investment spent this way with so little enhancement to the resort experience.
    Nearest International Airport is in Edmonton, 5 hours away.

    I would love to see VMR become developed and it even has full local and Native support, just not financial support

  8. #383
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    5 hrs to Edmonton and you pass a ski hill, Prince George is exactly 3hrs to the west and you pass a ski hill, Kamloops is 3+ hrs south and you pass a ski hill, jasper is 1.5 hr east and you pass a ski hill, not really enough skiers

    VMR would be right in the middle of nowhere just like Jumbo
    Last edited by XXX-er; 08-10-2019 at 01:30 PM.
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    Just curious, what are some the of the red flags?
    The biggest red flag in my mind is that Oberti seems to think that a real plus point is summer skiing. That is barely viable in Europe with a HUGE skiing population within driving distance of the summer ski areas. How could anyone with half a brain think there would be enough skiers wanting to ski in the interior of BC in summer to keep the lifts running?

  10. #385
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    some of my buds went up to sweeny about 3hrs from here where I/we have often gone to summer ski and apparently the glacier has receded big time with the global warming thing
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    some of my buds went up to sweeny about 3hrs from here where I/we have often gone to summer ski and apparently the glacier has receded big time with the global warming thing
    Saw those pics on fb, depressing. Have you looked up at the Kathlyn glacier lately? It has receded at an alarming rate this year.


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  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    When Kicking Horse opened with a gondola covering 4k vert. feet and NO mid terminal, I knew it was being developed by someone with NO ski industry experience.

    People are buying ski resort real estate, just not at places like KH or Revy which have very little intermediate terrain and thus are not very suitable for most families.. Expansion of both lifts and home building has been happening recently at Red, Whitewater, Silver Star and Sun Peaks.
    I don't know why you keep spouting your outdated myths about Revelstoke. Revelstoke had the fastest growing real estate market in BC the last two years. The only thing slowing down development in town is the dysfunctional planning department at city hall. The resort isn't selling condos, but that's because they aren't trying (go try and find a listing for a condo at RMR other than a re-sell - they don't exist) and are quite happy raking in the hotel room income. They're building a new hotel and conference centre, staff housing, installing a new lift, and just opened up a 15-km mountain bike trail that runs the entire vertical of the resort.

    Revy and KH made sense to develop because they were in essence both expansions of a local ski hill, and both are located minutes from the Trans-Canada Highway and right next to an existing town. Jumbo would require a brand new development from the ground-up an hour from the nearest community.

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexC View Post
    I don't know why you keep spouting your outdated myths about Revelstoke. Revelstoke had the fastest growing real estate market in BC the last two years. The only thing slowing down development in town is the dysfunctional planning department at city hall. The resort isn't selling condos, but that's because they aren't trying (go try and find a listing for a condo at RMR other than a re-sell - they don't exist) and are quite happy raking in the hotel room income. They're building a new hotel and conference centre, staff housing, installing a new lift, and just opened up a 15-km mountain bike trail that runs the entire vertical of the resort.

    Revy and KH made sense to develop because they were in essence both expansions of a local ski hill, and both are located minutes from the Trans-Canada Highway and right next to an existing town. Jumbo would require a brand new development from the ground-up an hour from the nearest community.
    Revy has also finally seemed to recover from their terrible timing of opening right at the start of the 2008 financial crisis and is building a new lift with some beginner/intermediate terrain way up high where the snow is good. Adding chairs to the stoke and gondi cabins last season was solid as well.

    I think they also plan on a new lift and terrain expansion in the next year or two. Revy is awesome - the remoteness and pain-in-the-ass-to-get-to factor makes it all the more magical, IMO.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    ... the flawed KH lift system.
    Blasphemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    When Kicking Horse opened with a gondola covering 4k vert. feet and NO mid terminal, I knew it was being developed by someone with NO ski industry experience.


    People are buying ski resort real estate, just not at places like KH or Revy which have very little intermediate terrain and thus are not very suitable for most families.. Expansion of both lifts and home building has been happening recently at Red, Whitewater, Silver Star and Sun Peaks.
    Ahhh. So you're not in it for the quality skiing, you're in it for the homogeneous real estate development opportunities. Stay in Sun Peaks, it's obviously the right place for you.

    Also, your drivel about "not family friendly" and "very little intermediate terrain" is absolutely wrong, but is parrotted by many of those who have never actually skied Kicking Horse.

    Lots of families. Lots of intermediate skiers. It's just that it's not ALL families and ALL beginner to intermediate skiers, which must be what makes you and your fragile ego so uncomfortable.

    Most of the blacks and double blacks end in a blue or green run cat track that is accessible from the very top of the mountain. This means that the advanced skiers can take the harder runs, while their beginner or intermediate friends and family can ski the blues and greens and never be out of each other's line of sight. Win, win.

    Come ski sometime and I'll show you around. I'll ski the singles and doubles and you can stick to the greens and blues that your comfortable with.
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 08-14-2019 at 09:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  15. #390
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    the original revy plan was much more ambitious. if they get halfway there...

    https://www.revelstokemountainresort...aster-plan.pdf

  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexC View Post
    I don't know why you keep spouting your outdated myths about Revelstoke. Revelstoke had the fastest growing real estate market in BC the last two years. The only thing slowing down development in town is the dysfunctional planning department at city hall. The resort isn't selling condos, but that's because they aren't trying (go try and find a listing for a condo at RMR other than a re-sell - they don't exist) and are quite happy raking in the hotel room income. They're building a new hotel and conference centre, staff housing, installing a new lift, and just opened up a 15-km mountain bike trail that runs the entire vertical of the resort.

    Revy and KH made sense to develop because they were in essence both expansions of a local ski hill, and both are located minutes from the Trans-Canada Highway and right next to an existing town. Jumbo would require a brand new development from the ground-up an hour from the nearest community.
    You are right about Revelstoke as I should have listed it in my post about resort expansion in B.C. I forgot about the Gondola cabins that were added.

    The new lift should address two of RMRs biggest flaws, low elevation and not enough intermediate terrain.

    When I was at RMR last season the joke among a couple of locals that I talked to was that the wildly popular summer Mountain Coaster was subsidizing winter operations. Given that Revelstoke is a natural stopping point for anyone driving west from Banff, developing more summer activities at RMR could be huge and a very smart response to the effects of climate change on winter activities.

  17. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    You are right about Revelstoke as I should have listed it in my post about resort expansion in B.C. I forgot about the Gondola cabins that were added.

    The new lift should address two of RMRs biggest flaws, low elevation and not enough intermediate terrain.

    When I was at RMR last season the joke among a couple of locals that I talked to was that the wildly popular summer Mountain Coaster was subsidizing winter operations. Given that Revelstoke is a natural stopping point for anyone driving west from Banff, developing more summer activities at RMR could be huge and a very smart response to the effects of climate change on winter activities.

    Took this pic of the brutal lift lines at Revy one morning a couple seasons ago. I think there must have been mayyyyybe 200 people out skiing that day.


  18. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    Took this pic of the brutal lift lines at Revy one morning a couple seasons ago. I think there must have been mayyyyybe 200 people out skiing that day.

    Jesus.

    What a real estate hell hole,...I'd never ski there.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Jesus.

    What a real estate hell hole,...I'd never ski there.
    Next stop on that trip was KH. We roll in to Golden and it starts dumping. Wake up, nothing crazy 4" in town maybe 6" up top but I tell my buddy to get his ass up cause the gondi line will be bad. Well, we haul ass and get up to the hill, and the parking lot is just... empty??? Parked like 6 spots away from the hole in the snowbank that leads to the gondola. Nobody fucking there, so we just went in to the coffee shop and had a leisurely snack and coffee.

    That place sucked.

    (also of note - went to take a piss in that coffee shop, had one unisex bathroom. It's in use so I gotta wait. Dude comes out, I go in, and he's pissed all over the seat like he was trying to put out a fire or something. No problem for me, I'm pissing too, so I lift it up, do the #1, then put the seat and lid (pretty sure there was a lid) down because I'm not a fucking animal. Wash hands and leave - except now there's a woman waiting to use it. So she probably thinks I pissed on the seat but it was that first asshole jong motherfucker who couldn't control his cock properly. So fuck that guy and anyone else who pisses on public toilet seats and just leaves it )

  20. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    Next stop on that trip was KH. We roll in to Golden and it starts dumping. Wake up, nothing crazy 4" in town maybe 6" up top but I tell my buddy to get his ass up cause the gondi line will be bad. Well, we haul ass and get up to the hill, and the parking lot is just... empty??? Parked like 6 spots away from the hole in the snowbank that leads to the gondola. Nobody fucking there, so we just went in to the coffee shop and had a leisurely snack and coffee.

    That place sucked.

    Yes, KH is another real estate hell hole which by default makes it completely useless for skiing. Especially for families. My advice is to stay away. Think of the children!

    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    (also of note - went to take a piss in that coffee shop, had one unisex bathroom. It's in use so I gotta wait. Dude comes out, I go in, and he's pissed all over the seat like he was trying to put out a fire or something. No problem for me, I'm pissing too, so I lift it up, do the #1, then put the seat and lid (pretty sure there was a lid) down because I'm not a fucking animal. Wash hands and leave - except now there's a woman waiting to use it. So she probably thinks I pissed on the seat but it was that first asshole jong motherfucker who couldn't control his cock properly. So fuck that guy and anyone else who pisses on public toilet seats and just leaves it )
    My guess is the dude that was in there before you thought the same thing about the local chick who was in there before him.

    #hoofhearted
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 08-16-2019 at 10:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  21. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    Took this pic of the brutal lift lines at Revy one morning a couple seasons ago. I think there must have been mayyyyybe 200 people out skiing that day.

    Revy is a fun hill but it CAN get insanely busy in the gondi line. I've been there when the line went up and around the upper parking lot. Massive waits there and another huge line at the Stoke Chair.... but by 11 the place was a ghost town. It would benefit from some more uphill capacity, there is SO much terrain to spread people out in.

  22. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
    When Kicking Horse opened with a gondola covering 4k vert. feet and NO mid terminal, I knew it was being developed by someone with NO ski industry experience.

    People are buying ski resort real estate, just not at places like KH or Revy which have very little intermediate terrain and thus are not very suitable for most families.. Expansion of both lifts and home building has been happening recently at Red, Whitewater, Silver Star and Sun Peaks.
    Silver Star and Big White have been extremely busy the past 3 years. In the past year at Silver Star there were 67 sales (lots, strata, SFD).
    www.skevikskis.com Check em out!

  23. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Blasphemy.



    Ahhh. So you're not in it for the quality skiing, you're in it for the homogeneous real estate development opportunities. Stay in Sun Peaks, it's obviously the right place for you.

    Also, your drivel about "not family friendly" and "very little intermediate terrain" is absolutely wrong, but is parrotted by many of those who have never actually skied Kicking Horse.

    Lots of families. Lots of intermediate skiers. It's just that it's not ALL families and ALL beginner to intermediate skiers, which must be what makes you and your fragile ego so uncomfortable.

    Most of the blacks and double blacks end in a blue or green run cat track that is accessible from the very top of the mountain. This means that the advanced skiers can take the harder runs, while their beginner or intermediate friends and family can ski the blues and greens and never be out of each other's line of sight. Win, win.

    Come ski sometime and I'll show you around. I'll ski the singles and doubles and you can stick to the greens and blues that your comfortable with.
    The point is more that the real estate development and traffic is required to pay for incremental improvements and to cover operating costs. Ski resorts are ridiculously capital intensive businesses.

    While KH has lots of families, they tend to be of the more hard core skier families. Which is fine, it is just a limited market. My brother was the #2 manager at KH back in the 00ís and I have skied there a lot. As my brother used to joke, the only difference between the blues and the black runs on the front side at KH is the blue runs are groomed. Same pitch. That makes it very challenging for the tourist skier and the reputation reflects that.

    The green cat track is the only green run from the summit and so beginner terrain is very restricted. Not much variety to keep beginners interested and it can get very congested to even dangerous levels.

    While current ownership is well heeled, Murray Edwards is a spendthrift and wonít spend a penny unless he sees a good return around the corner. This contrasts with ownership at Red, who is a wealthy developer from California and willing to put some money into a new lift, which if it is similar o the other lifts, I believe all the others were purchased second hand. The new one may have been as well, I canít remember that conversation as I was a few beers into it after a heck of a powder day last February. But Edwards bought KH for cheap and is likely looking to sell it if he sees a decent offer. But without more traffic, or selling a ton of new residential lots, I donít see him putting in a lot of new lifts.




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  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by dufferdan View Post
    The point is more that the real estate development and traffic is required to pay for incremental improvements and to cover operating costs. Ski resorts are ridiculously capital intensive businesses. ....

    ..... But Edwards bought KH for cheap and is likely looking to sell it if he sees a decent offer. But without more traffic, or selling a ton of new residential lots, I don’t see him putting in a lot of new lifts.

    true to a point. Edwards bought a ski hill that was losing money, can't remember the figure but was 1 to 5 mil a year. It is making money now. Skier visits up every year last 3. Management knows that crazy lift lines on powder days damages brand. As per RCR J Shey GM. Talked to him a fair bit last year. On his wish list is lift in Rudis. That would bring a lot of true blue alpine terrain. Yes there has to Rear Estate sales to finance that and to have those have to invest in infrastructure. 4 house builds a year isn't going to do that. KH has asked to get some more crown land for a 150 bed hotel/condo project. That is on top of land they already have. That 8 plex that they cleared land for 2 years ago still hasn't started. Have heard from not most reliable source that they have to invest in water and sewage first. KH and Fernie will be competing for investment money. For KH to get the $ it has to have a better return than a project at Fernie. It would be nice to get a new lift but I don't care that much.
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    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  25. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    true to a point. Edwards bought a ski hill that was losing money, can't remember the figure but was 1 to 5 mil a year. It is making money now. Skier visits up every year last 3. Management knows that crazy lift lines on powder days damages brand. As per RCR J Shey GM. Talked to him a fair bit last year. On his wish list is lift in Rudis. That would bring a lot of true blue alpine terrain. Yes there has to Rear Estate sales to finance that and to have those have to invest in infrastructure. 4 house builds a year isn't going to do that. KH has asked to get some more crown land for a 150 bed hotel/condo project. That is on top of land they already have. That 8 plex that they cleared land for 2 years ago still hasn't started. Have heard from not most reliable source that they have to invest in water and sewage first. KH and Fernie will be competing for investment money. For KH to get the $ it has to have a better return than a project at Fernie. It would be nice to get a new lift but I don't care that much.
    That makes sense. A lot of resorts were bleeding cash in the late 2000ís to early 2010ís. Good that KH is back in the black, at least a bit. It makes sense that they would need to either expand or put in the water / sewer first. Panorama and CORIX have had to do the same. They had to get off the draw from Toby Creek to stabilize water quality and have drilled a bunch of wells around the resort and also invest in a new reservoir. It is also to allow further real estate growth.

    Tough business.


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