Jumbo Glacier Resort

[liv2ski]

^^^^^ Huh, same up there as down here. I hate that shit.

[DougW]

This court case was just winding through and the natives just didn't want to quit. They had already lost two times already but still pressed on. Good for their lawyers I guess. Has no impact on Jumbo as Jumbo was already dead. Have to totally restart the permit process and they still don't have any money. It does form a precedent that that tactic won't work.

[gramboh]

This court case was just winding through and the natives just didn't want to quit. They had already lost two times already but still pressed on. Good for their lawyers I guess. Has no impact on Jumbo as Jumbo was already dead. Have to totally restart the permit process and they still don't have any money. It does form a precedent that that tactic won't work.

All of this.

Valemount looks more likely although weren’t they supposed to have some infrastructure done for December 2017? Haven’t heard anything since the big announcement.

Edit, missed this: http://www.therockymountaingoat.com/...-again-oberti/

[dufferdan]

The scale and scope of the “Jumbo Dream” in my view, did not make any sense. Even with Toby Creek road and Jumbo Creek Road widened and straightened, it would be 40 minutes past Panorama which is already 3 1/2 hours from an international airport. Revelstoke is 4-5 hours and through one of the worst passes in the country. My uncle was one of the original investors in Revelstoke. We used to have conversations about where the skiers would come from. Pointing out the Rogers Pass issues and distance to airport....” we will train them up from Kelowna” “ it will be epic, people will come” . 10 years on, people are starting to, but it isn’t easy to get there. From either direction.

Jumbo will be worse. No through traffic or train alternative. More remote drive. So you don’t get Day skiers and weekends will be a stretch.

While the original plan was overreaching, I had heard that the owners were planning a much smaller development that won’t need as much environmental approvals...sounds to me like get a toe hold and grow from there. All third hand, so no idea if true. And even though I personally would potentially benefit as I own vacation property at Panorama and it might help price appreciation, I don’t think the development makes any sense from a risk/reward perspective.

Worth noting that in areas with similar style development, like, say , the Alps in Europe, you have 700MM people within 3.5 hours travel time. You don’t have 100,000 within 3.5 hours travel time of Jumbo.


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[nickinbc]

Pretty sure the Trans-Canada will be 4 laned all the way from Kamloops to Alberta and jet airliners will be landing at Revelstoke Airport before CPR would allow a passenger service to Revelstoke

[DanoT]

Jumbo is dead as their development permit has been cancelled due to a lack of development. Pouring a few concrete footings was deemed inadequate.

So, on to Valemont for the Oberti family and guess what, there is a lack of any substantial development of any kind, due to a lack of investment money.

Valemont is even more remote than Revelstoke with the closest international airport 5 hours away in Edmonton.

Valemont with a population of around 3000 dosen't have a big enough pop to provide large enough day skier numbers and there are not enough hotel rooms for large numbers of out of town skiers.

[BCMtnHound]

Valemont with a population of around 3000 dosen't have a big enough pop to provide large enough day skier numbers and there are not enough hotel rooms for large numbers of out of town skiers.

I don't think there is much over 2000 people between Albreda and Crescent Spur. Valemount is just over 1000 permanent residents, and McBride about 600. But ya, there is barely enough accommodation in the valley for the seasonal influx of slednecks, hence the crazy real estate prices in Valemount. And Wiegele is pushing the 8 Peaks proposal hard in Blue R ever since the 2015 announcement by Oberti for VGR. Fun times in the area

[kootenayskier]

The rule of 3s for success in the ski resort business (as a I recall according Jamie Tattersfield, operations manager at Sunpeaks for over 20 years): You’ve got to be within 3 hrs drive, of 3 million people, and be the 3rd owner.

[DanoT]

The rule of 3s for success in the ski resort business (as a I recall according Jamie Tattersfield, operations manager at Sunpeaks for over 20 years): You’ve got to be within 3 hrs drive, of 3 million people, and be the 3rd owner.

The problem with the 3 million people within 3 hours formula is that in Western Canada only Whistler and Vancouver's north shore ski areas meet the criteria.

[DougW]

love the 3rd owner thing, maybe second owner if first owner had lots of money and big dreams and you ( 2nd owner) bought for less than 20 cents on $

[gramboh]

The problem with the 3 million people within 3 hours formula is that in Western Canada only Whistler and Vancouver's north shore ski areas meet the criteria.

I would wager a guess that those are also the only resorts that could justify significant capital investment with an expectation of any return. All other ski areas might turn an operating profit based on maintenance of old infrastructure but none could justify a significant investment required for big expansion (or start up of a new area).

[LHutz Esq]

On 3rds

1st Owner has dreams and goes through the permitting crap - goes broke.
2nd Owner picks it up for pennies, dumps millions into actual facilities - goes broke.
3rd Owner picks it up for pennies - but has something that can operate, maybe goes broke.

[cmcrawfo]

On 3rds

1st Owner has dreams and goes through the permitting crap - goes broke.
2nd Owner picks it up for pennies, dumps millions into actual facilities - goes broke.
3rd Owner picks it up for pennies - but has something that can operate, maybe goes broke.

I am confident that most resort development is just money laundering.

Kicking Horses Gondola, as an example was an excellent way for a multinational construction company to wash a pile of cash.

[DanoT]

I am confident that most resort development is just money laundering.

Kicking Horses Gondola, as an example was an excellent way for a multinational construction company to wash a pile of cash.

As far as KH goes, the Dutch bridge building that got the contract to build the Confederation Bridge to P.E.I. had as part of it's contract, a provision to come up with an additional investment in Canada. That investment turned out to be Kicking Horse. I would hardly call that money laundering.

[cmcrawfo]

As far as KH goes, the Dutch bridge building that got the contract to build the Confederation Bridge to P.E.I. had as part of it's contract, a provision to come up with an additional investment in Canada. That investment turned out to be Kicking Horse. I would hardly call that money laundering.

Admittedly, I don't know all the deets... but folks closer to the actual project speculated on this... made sense to me in the brief discussion I had on the subject.... nevertheless, construction is an excellent way to launder money.

Its interesting to consider why so many big spenders line up to develop resorts ... in most of the recent resort development, the Rule of 3rds, Re: ownership seems to hold true ... On face value, you buy a resort and dump a bunch of money into it and then sell it at a loss, doesn't make sense... but It seems to make sense for the investors who keep stepping up to the plate. There have to be other incentives, and the ability to launder money through construction is an incentive for some.

Again, I'm just speculating ... but aside from money laundering the only other explanation is that all these rich people who, on paper, loose money on the reports that they develop are just idiots.

[DanoT]

Admittedly, I don't know all the deets... but folks closer to the actual project speculated on this... made sense to me in the brief discussion I had on the subject.... nevertheless, construction is an excellent way to launder money.

Its interesting to consider why so many big spenders line up to develop resorts ... in most of the recent resort development, the Rule of 3rds, Re: ownership seems to hold true ... On face value, you buy a resort and dump a bunch of money into it and then sell it at a loss, doesn't make sense... but It seems to make sense for the investors who keep stepping up to the plate. There have to be other incentives, and the ability to launder money through construction is an incentive for some.

Again, I'm just speculating ... but aside from money laundering the only other explanation is that all these rich people who, on paper, loose money on the reports that they develop are just idiots.

The two newest ski resorts in B.C. are KH and Revy are money losers. Both were built by non ski industry rich guys with more money then knowledge of what is feasible in the ski business.

The original owners of Revy were real estate developers from Colorado and Toronto. They hired Al Raine as a consultant. Al is husband to former Olympic and WC Champion Nancy Green and is the current mayor of Sun Peaks. When they lived in Whistler, Al was instrumental in the development of the current town site.

Al recommended that the owners of Revy NOT proceed with the project. The main reasons:
The size of the town of Revelstoke is not large enough to support a project of this size.
The location is too remote, too difficult to get to.
Too much of the mountain is low elevation.
Not enough intermediate terrain.
They went ahead and built it anyways, put in a flawed lift system, tried to sell real estate at way too inflated prices and then sold out at a loss no doubt, after one year.

So yes, they are rich idiots who were out of their element.

[cmcrawfo]

Excellent points, but....

I have never been one to let truth interfere with sensationalism.

[LeeLau]

Excellent points, but....

I have never been one to let truth interfere with sensationalism.

Ballast Needam who got soaked in KH also got a massive writeoff to soak up some of the income and capital gain from the Confederation Bridge construction project.

[dufferdan]

The two newest ski resorts in B.C. are KH and Revy are money losers. Both were built by non ski industry rich guys with more money then knowledge of what is feasible in the ski business.

The original owners of Revy were real estate developers from Colorado and Toronto. They hired Al Raine as a consultant. Al is husband to former Olympic and WC Champion Nancy Green and is the current mayor of Sun Peaks. When they lived in Whistler, Al was instrumental in the development of the current town site.

Al recommended that the owners of Revy NOT proceed with the project. The main reasons:
The size of the town of Revelstoke is not large enough to support a project of this size.
The location is too remote, too difficult to get to.
Too much of the mountain is low elevation.
Not enough intermediate terrain.
They went ahead and built it anyways, put in a flawed lift system, tried to sell real estate at way too inflated prices and then sold out at a loss no doubt, after one year.

So yes, they are rich idiots who were out of their element.

Not going to argue these points. My relative sold to the main shareholder and ended up with a lot at the mid-mountain base large enough for a condo/hotel project. Last we chatted, years ago, he wasn’t putting money into the location until he saw the traffic. He also temporarily owned the cat ski op, but sold that back to the operator. He was not a real estate developer though.


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[kootenayskier]

The problem with the 3 million people within 3 hours formula is that in Western Canada only Whistler and Vancouver's north shore ski areas meet the criteria.

I think Jamie was specifically including Sunpeaks in this limited group, but it isn’t an easy way to make money.

[snojones]

wasn't sunpeaks the area that fired all of their management because they had the gall to bust the owners son for skiing in an area that was closed for avi danger?

[kootenayskier]

wasn't sunpeaks the area that fired all of their management because they had the gall to bust the owners son for skiing in an area that was closed for avi danger?

That was Sunshine.

[mntlion]

That was Sunshine.

and it was 4 long term patrol, 5+ years ago

[skitolive]

and it was 4 long term patrol, 5+ years ago

Wasn’t one of them head of mountain ops too?


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[DougW]

weren't they going to court? or did sue and was it settled?