bc "holy trinity" sanctimony...

[jfost]

beacon, probe, shovel...

don't get me wrong, I do see the need for these fine tools. Kind of like a bike helmet... (you'll never really use it - but if you do, it's good to have)

There is rampant 'tude around here and among BC types in general about these items, especially the beacon.

stuff like, "I just worry that Mr. X isn't prepared with his beacon"... I am starting to wonder if it isn't just another media shitstorm-frenzy! How many people have actually used their beacon to make a rescue? I'm not trying to be a jerk or controversial, but I am truly interested in the ACTUAL risks of avy's...

[Greydon Clark]

I have no idea what your point is.

[cj001f]

You'll be dead someday. Why does the when matter? Better look at porn instead. Did I tell you I like Scarlet Johansen? She's hot. Oh - and that Dawson's creek Katie Holmes. Not the new, psycho Katie, but the old hot one. Oh - and Porter. I like porters. Good dark beers, gotta have good dark beers. The beer that made brewing. Mmm oysters and porter. I like beer. Makes the day. mmmm.

[mc_roon]

if he didnt have 61 posts, i would say troll.

seriously though, are you retarted?

[LeeLau]

I'm going to restrain my initial "are you for real" reaction.

No-one goes out in the backcountry looking for an avalanche. I know that's not what you're asking.

Sometimes, despite your best efforts or your judgment or maybe because you pushed a little too far and too hard avalanches happen.

If an avalanche happens then you may get buried. If you get buried, having a beacon may help in your retrieval. A shovel and a probe also aid in speed of body retrieval. If you survived the avalanche the speed of the retrieval may determine whether you live or die.

I'm belabouring the point that beacon, shovel, probes don't guarantee safety. They're simply tools. I've never used one to recover a body and hopefully I never have to. I'm not sure why that would affect my decision whether or not to carry one.

Of course, they can also be used to accessorize your pack while you're wandering around a pub apres-ski but that's a totally different topic.

[jfost]

^^^ not usually, a little buzzy tho...

I was just listening to the e-coli story on the news and how all the spinach had to go even though only 168 ppl got sick all across the USA, and how everyone is deathly worried about things that rarely need to be worried about.

All I wanted to know is, (maybe I should have done a poll) how many people here have used their beacon in a non-training situation???

I've been playing in the snow about 20yrs. and didn't really know/wonder/consider BC stuff until I met a few tele guys last year and finally got some AT gear, now I'm learning. Rather than take things at face, I want to check on some things from those who know... so sorry guys, this was supposed to be more of a question/answer - I should not have used the word sanctimony in my title!

[cj001f]

ecoli? I had ecoli once. Never eat cooked spinach. Only the raw spinach - it's got all the natural vitamins. Oh - and only drink Marzens in the month of march. And IPA's and India. And always buy your underwear from KMart. Or does KMart suck? Yeah, KMart sucks. Never buy underwear from KMart.

[Brocktoon]

Definitely KMart. 400 Oak Street.

[TJ.Brk]

beacon, probe, shovel...

don't get me wrong, I do see the need for these fine tools. Kind of like a bike helmet... (you'll never really use it - but if you do, it's good to have)

There is rampant 'tude around here and among BC types in general about these items, especially the beacon.

stuff like, "I just worry that Mr. X isn't prepared with his beacon"... I am starting to wonder if it isn't just another media shitstorm-frenzy! How many people have actually used their beacon to make a rescue? I'm not trying to be a jerk or controversial, but I am truly interested in the ACTUAL risks of avy's...

I believe this might help you. It's called: "Hey let's all do a beacon test, and search before we go up today"

OK I'm done being a smartass. But seriously do that. And also take an avi clinic. If you cannot there are many free online avi clinics you can take. I found this one recently of www.biglines.com

http://access.jibc.bc.ca/avalancheFi...nse/course.htm

Hope that helps you.

[Mofro261]

Until we find a cure for sanctimony, just keep treating it with antimony. May not help with E coli, but should help clear out on those parasites feasting on your sense of reason.

[jfost]

I guess the other thing that brought this up was when a couple of guys were talking about a potential BC trip, and one guy said - "sounds good as long as everyone has beacon training..." That kind of sounded pompous to me, and really sparked my interest in whether many people have ever had to actually use their avy gear... I think it helps me to understand the actual potential risks vs. good old fashioned heresy.

I do have the gear, and intend to take some classes on its use this season. I also probably won't hassle anyone about it, but that is my personality... I used to SCUBA, and carried around a few items of safety gear which I never actually used... so I suppose it is similar, but for some reason I don't remember as many people being excessively dorky about it - it was just understood that you would have the gear. Maybe it is ruined as mentioned above by the wear it around the lodge and act 'core' crowd???

Thanks Lee for the second look at my dorky post! It seems from your postings that you have logged many miles in the BC - glad to hear your honest reply about the gear...

[cj001f]

Until we find a cure for sanctimony, just keep treating it with antimony. May not help with E coli, but should help clear out on those parasites feasting on your sense of reason.

tin and lead. tin in these foundation of the modern world. where would we be without cans? What would we do without grean beans in water? What would boy scouts throw in the fire? Who would kill JR? It's because of tin. And my great granduncle would still be alive if it werent' for tin. And the work of alfred nobel. And unions. Curse the world.

[Telenater]

I guess the other thing that brought this up was when a couple of guys were talking about a potential BC trip, and one guy said - "sounds good as long as everyone has beacon training..." That kind of sounded pompous to me, and really sparked my interest in whether many people have ever had to actually use their avy gear... I think it helps me to understand the actual potential risks vs. good old fashioned heresy.

The actual risk of being involved in an avy in the sierra is relatively low. But, that level of risk is entirely contingent on the choices that people make and where they choose to draw the line regarding the risk they are willing to accept. I generally equate a person's ability to make decisons to their willingness to own and practice with a beacon (litmus test for education).

I've got a comparatively low risk threshold compared to some here... that's my choice. But, in addition to the risk of the avalanche, one must also deal with the potential consequences of it. If I believe that there is a non-negligible chance of an avy I'll generally insist that everyone in my party have a beacon and be proficient in it's use. At that point, I'm not concerned with my ability to locate them as much as I am for maximizing the number of people capable of searching for me should I need it (and hoping the same thought is running through the head of everyone else in the party).

This is very much in line with the adage. "If you don't have your shovel and probe, I'll give you mine so that you can dig me out."

[summit]

For the record, my life has been safed by my bike helmet.

My bones have been saved by ski body armor.

I've used my shovel in a rescue operations.

I've used probes in rescue operations

The only reason I didn't use a beacon to search was that the victims weren't wearing beacons. I wear my beacon anytime I ski the BC (except the summer) and inbounds a lot of the time too.

PAGING POSTMAN22!!!

one guy said - "sounds good as long as everyone has beacon training..." That kind of sounded pompous to me

Pompous in that making sure your partners are capable of potentially saving your life in the event of a mishap.

I used to SCUBA, and carried around a few items of safety gear which I never actually used... so I suppose it is similar, but for some reason I don't remember as many people being excessively dorky about it - it was just understood that you would have the gear.

Do you trust a dive boat operation that doesn't carry O2?

Or your dive buddy who does NOT have an octopus and doesn't know how to buddy breath?

We don't trust people who don't have the training and tools to effect a basic rescue.

[PacRimRider1]

Beacons can't probe too deep in the snow, shovels suck for picking up tranciever signals, and probes don't move snow very well. That's why I carry all three.

[Squatch]

a ski slope is stable, assuming avalache conditions, about 19/20 times. (Rough estimate from bruce tremper's book). Many people here have skied more 20 backcountry runs. Yes, avy knowledge reduces those risk significantly, but it's not a low-probability to begin with.

[powstash]

Let go of your fragile ego and do what comes natural.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

Do you trust a dive boat operation that doesn't carry O2?

Or your dive buddy who does NOT have an octopus and doesn't know how to buddy breath?

We don't trust people who don't have the training and tools to effect a basic rescue.

Ditto. And would you dive with a buddy who had no NAUI or PADI certs/training? I highly doubt it. Even though that policy may sound "pompous" on the surface, it might save your life down on the bottom.

[Redskea]

Had beacon in hand ready to start searching both in bounds and out as someone went for a ride.
Both times the person in the slide finished up on the surface.
If they had been buried and I had not had a beacon I would have been responsible for their death. Not a situation you would want to be in.

My life has also been saved by a cycle helmet.

[pechelman]

how many people here have used their beacon in a non-training situation???

hopefully very few of us will ever need to use a beacon in a real life situation.
I would argue that we do everything in our powers to prevent that by reading books, discussing phenomena, going to classes and seminars, talking to professionals, etc etc etc.

The whole idea behind carrying a beacon\avy gear, is not solely to have it to use imo, but more of being prepared, aware, and responsible of the danger and lives of yourself, others, and those you would effect should anything happen.

Do you also not buy insurance for your car or home or health?

Im sorry but I dont understand how one could *ever* even *begin* to think about not carrying a beacon in the backcountry once they are aware that there is a risk. Generally speaking, if you know what a beacon is, you know there is a risk.

Honestly, if youre interested in not carrying any safety equipment, please do not ski with a partner\group and do not ski around me. I do see what your getting at about carrying items you'll never use, but unlike that extra spork you never use, these things are required and not optional.

[Ireallyliketoski2]

I've never used my beacon for a non-training rescue, but I have triggered an avalanche so I can tell you that they do happen.

[cj001f]

Can I get an amen brother! Speak the gospel! Feel the Lord!

[kidwoo]

Don't worry about it. Nothing slides in Tahoe. You know how pompous those tele guys can be.




This slope has about 20-50 people on it every weekend.


Be one of these guys....either the rescued or the rescuer.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=baker

Not the dipshit without a beeper.

[shirk]

Of course, they can also be used to accessorize your pack while you're wandering around a pub apres-ski but that's a totally different topic.

This is the only reason I ski with Avy gear, gotta look radgnar in the Village apres.

I can't believe someone would even question the need for gear in the BC.

[jfost]

a ski slope is stable, assuming avalache conditions, about 19/20 times. (Rough estimate from bruce tremper's book). Many people here have skied more 20 backcountry runs. Yes, avy knowledge reduces those risk significantly, but it's not a low-probability to begin with.

ok, a 5% chance of slide during avy conditions... I think that is likely WAY higher than the chance of needing a bike helmet or buddy-breathing while SCUBA-ing!!!

So, probably the very best thing is to learn to avoid or minimize exposure through training and discussion of past slides. I checked out the forum where that sort of thing (discussion of slides) takes place... very interesting and informative. It seems that those willing to talk about their mistakes are really helping, while those who cluck their tongues and offer nothing of substance are annoying.

Thanks for putting this issue in perspective, again, I was just trying to wrap my mind around the relative risk profile of the BC.

Thanks also cj... your shit is funny

edit: I really didn't question the need for the gear. I bought it afterall and I've only toured on Mt. Rose inbounds after closing day. I guess the 1st response was right on: "I have no idea what your point is..." Hahaha, hopefully I've explained myself a little - I would like to learn more and maybe even tour with some of you guys in the future... once I work off the blackball from this thread!!!