Ortovox S1 & Mammut's Barryvox Pulse

**AltaPowderDaze** · 10-05-2006, 05:33 PM

I just thought it'd be nice to have a thread where everyone could post some up to date info on these new cutting edge beacons. Any reviews, techy info or speculation is welcome. It sounds like the S1 will not be available to most people for a while. Those shops that pre ordered will have them by mid november and be sold out before then or soon after. It also seems that the big boys (REI/Backcountry.com) may not have ordered due to Ortovox not being able to meet the demand off the bat. The reason being that they make all the known products first so they don't hold up production because a new product hits a glitch. The Barryvox Pulse looks to ship a week after the S1.

Ortovox S1:

http://www.backcountrysafety.com/a_a..._ortovoxs1.php
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/pr...tem/111974/N/0
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Ortovox-S1
http://www.expo.planetmountain.com/P...=216&id_comp=9
http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=125
http://www.patrollersupply.com/store...asp?search=yes
http://www.ortovox.com/typo7/index.php?id=12&L=1

Barryvox Pulse:

http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=109
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/2234977.html
http://www.getoutdoors.com/goblog/in...he-Beacon.html
http://www.telemarktips.com/TeleNews75.html
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Mammut-Pulse
http://www.bentgate.net/puavbebyba.html
http://powdermag.com/news/mammut-pulse/

any info would be appreciated.

**PacRimRider1** · 10-11-2006, 01:04 AM

I've got nothing to add, other than that I'd like to see the screen of the S1 during a simulation.

**summit** · 10-11-2006, 01:19 AM

i really want to check out the S1

here is my post from the old Pulse thread: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=54071

I think the sensor fusion is brilliant. Encode the identity of the received beacon signals, broadcast that to the other beacons with one tagged as as that particular beacon's search target.

It kind of reminds me of how the military can have newer fighters see what their wingman's radar sees.To take that idea further: if you integrated GPS into the beacons, the searching beacons could communicate their coordinates and the relative locations of the buried signals for more precision, triangulation, and extended search range. Maybe that is in the next model. You could even make a pro search only model with larger antennas and amplifies for long range. It could be used by ski patrol/SAR/helicopters. It could radio link as stated above, working like a AWACS, showing all the little normal beacons the big picture, and relaying lockon information as well. (Barryvox, if you use these ideas from reading them here, I expect you to send me a free beacon!)

What is the range of the radio link? Hopefully at least 2x or 3x times the 457 receiving range. What frequency does that operate on? This may add more to the "no cell phones or radios - they interfere" dogma. I hope the radio network between beacons won't sap the batteries (or maybe they'll got 3 AAs).

All that aside, I agree with Hugh Jardon that this is a lot of stuff on the multiple burials when people have trouble with single burials. Then again, if people have trouble with single burials, multiples are even harder for them. Also, multiple burials of beacon wearing people although rare in the US seems to be less uncommon in Europe/Canada. (Paging Hacksaw for verification)

-------

This means that it will show a heart icon next to the victim icon for victims whose Pulse Barryvox has “positive vitals information.”

So does it show ?s next to nonPB beacons and a + or - next to PB beacons for vitals?

What is the range of the beacon?
What is the range at which encoded information like vitals can be decoded?
So are beacons where distant weak signal allows direction and range but not decoding vitals information show as ?s as well?

Otherwise you have out-of-vitals-range PB beacons and nonPB beacons grouped in the same search priority as PB beacons showing their wearer as dead.

I wonder if there will be a professional rescue version that actually quantify vitals instead of just showing yes or no.

I am very curious what they consider "positive vitals information." I'll be their instructions have on hell of a disclaimer because it seems like that kind of a system could easily read a false negative after the wearer is churned and buried.

I hope Barryvox shares the encoding info instead of patenting too tightly. As other beacons add vitals capablility, they need to be able to show it for other brands.

----
And the response I got:

Originally Posted by Graupel

For vitals info, the searching beacon will show a heart icon for "positive vitals information" next to the victim icon. If it doesn't receive "positive vitals information" from a transmitting beacon, then that means (1) the transmitting beacon is a different model, (2) the vitals sensor isn't picking up "positive vitals information" for that victim, or (3) the sensor just isn't working (Yikes). In all three of those cases, it shows nothing. So, it either shows a heart icon, or it doesn't.

Vitals range is a very good question. I don't have the answer for you. I would assume that the range is at least as great as the digital range of the beacon, but again, I don't know the exact answer. The PBs have an additional frequency to use for data transmission, Mammut calls this the W-link. I believe its at 900 kHz, and I believe this is what carries the vitals information. I'm no techie, but 900 should travel farther than 457, right? I guess this is brings up another good question. Does 900 kHz penetrate through snow as effectively? Again, I'm no techie, so I'm not sure?

Perhaps someday vitals can be quantified as well. I don't think that will happen with a Pro model of this PB soon. The vitals sensor is a motion sensor, and simply determines if vitals exist. I'm still trying to get information on exactly how this works too.

I do hear that Barryvox is planning on "sharing" this technology to get it into more beacon brands. I'm not sure how they plan to do this, or at what cost to other manufacturers. Obviously, it is more useful to be in more than just their model beacon.

**AltaPowderDaze** · 10-11-2006, 08:27 AM

The next question is what does Pieps have comming? I talked with a rep yesterday that didn't have any hard info but said their sensor model would be ready by late winter or the following season. my guess is the latter since they just learned of it themselves.

i am highly conflicted on what to do. if the technology to exists to make avy recovery quicker, then i want it. what stops me is the unknowns. will it fail/malfunction when i need it? does it work well with other beacon brands? the peips dsp had problems with that until the firmware upgrade. will it really be available when they say it will? well that's a problem because i don't want to wait half a season to upgrade. it'd be nice to have it before refreshers and training start. i think my decision is probably made up for now. go with the pieps dsp for now and maybe upgrade next season if things work out. for now i'll just keep my M2 for a backup.

summit,

it's my understanding that the pulse has a motion sensor that kicks on after the beacon has been very still for a set time (60 sec?). it just detects small amounts of movement based on the wearers normal vital movements. the big difference with the pulse is that it is a 360* display which is nice. the S1 was like that also but they removed that feature due to confusion. i'm told the new way is a bit counterintuitive but you can get used to it. the S1 found a way to get more juice out of 3 AAA's than the pulse. the difference is about 120-140 minutes battery life (i assume that is transmitt only). the new carry systems seem great on these devices. the S1 has a belt it straps on and the pulse looks to be just modified from the opto 3000's case.

**hutash** · 10-11-2006, 06:50 PM

Here is a cite I found a while ago, just an FYI

http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/index.htm

**marshalolson** · 10-20-2006, 09:14 AM

^^^ heading to the s1 test BUMP ^^^

**Hacksaw** · 10-20-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

^^^ heading to the s1 test BUMP ^^^

The what?

**marshalolson** · 10-20-2006, 09:56 PM

ok, the test was really cool. stoked to play with them.

first the d3: it works great. i am ordering one for myself on tuesday. quick and easy to the first victim, tought isolating the 2nd victim will take a little practice, there are clear Q's, and with a little practice, it totally makes sense. one important thing of note is that you do not wave the beacon around for the signal, just slowly orient to follow flux lines.

s1: wow. pretty cool. tons of neat tech: inclinoiter, temp, compass, a bunch of neat safety features, 70m! acurate range. really the initial victim was not really any faster than the d3. quick, and just like a normal search, though the fine search is pretty nifty. however the huge improvement is how quickly multiple burrials are found afterward the first. they literally just nag off. so much quicker than any regualr beacon. this thing really seems to be a tool for patrol, guides etc. it is also sold out for the year.

all in all, stoked. these 2 new beacons are both steps in the right direction.

and remember, practice practice practice. and carry a real shovel. mini tour shovels are bullshit.

ps: hacksaw: call up markus, he is going to be up in suco for a demo tomorrow.

**Hugh Jardon** · 10-22-2006, 09:38 PM

Why are the S1's not in stores now? What's the deal?

**AltaPowderDaze** · 10-22-2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

Why are the S1's not in stores now? What's the deal?

check the first post of this thread. unless something has changed, that is the rough schedule.

**cololi** · 10-23-2006, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

Encode the identity of the received beacon signals, broadcast that to the other beacons with one tagged as as that particular beacon's search target.

It kind of reminds me of how the military can have newer fighters see what their wingman's radar sees.To take that idea further: if you integrated GPS into the beacons, the searching beacons could communicate their coordinates and the relative locations of the buried signals for more precision, triangulation, and extended search range. Maybe that is in the next model. You could even make a pro search only model with larger antennas and amplifies for long range. It could be used by ski patrol/SAR/helicopters. It could radio link as stated above, working like a AWACS, showing all the little normal beacons the big picture, and relaying lockon information as well. (Barryvox, if you use these ideas from reading them here, I expect you to send me a free beacon!)

This is basically what I was saying in a thread awhile back. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ghlight=cololi
I just hope this thing actually hits the market soon and is relatively glitch free because I am in the market for a new one, but don't want to drop my cash until this new generation is proven.

I do think that this is just the start of a revolution in beacon engineering. The technology is out there, it is just up to someone to put together.

**marshalolson** · 11-09-2006, 11:19 PM

all s1's are sold out to guide services and NSPs @ major resorts. this time next year. but honestly, for the average consumer, the d3 kicks ass.

**AltaPowderDaze** · 11-10-2006, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

all s1's are sold out to guide services and NSPs @ major resorts. this time next year. but honestly, for the average consumer, the d3 kicks ass.

the s1's should have another batch coming out in jan/feb of this season. the d3 may be a good consumer beacon but those that i know who have used it will not purchase it for pro use.

**marshalolson** · 11-10-2006, 08:35 AM

pretty sure that i was told that the next shipment mentioned above has all been spoken for.

but yeah, the d3 is a great consumer beacon, but not really for the guide/pro etc, sorta like how the s1 is a really sweet guide/pro beacon, but not really for the average consumer.

**mtcham** · 11-10-2006, 04:26 PM

Newbie here,

Just upgraded from older analog beacons to the Ortovox d3's and from one practice session these seem like nice beacons. We'll be doing much more work with them but initially I am quite pleased with ease of use especially after owning the analogs.
Would like to hear others pros and cons of the d3.

Update: After trying the new Pulse beacons we sent back the D3's and now own the Pulses. Advantages over our old beacons-much greater range in primary (about 70m), can hear all analog transmitters, easy marking for multiples, and no spikes and better pinpointing between 2-3m.

**Hugh Jardon** · 11-10-2006, 11:54 PM

I played with the D3 and found it to be sluggish and unresponsive. AM I MISSING SOMETHING? It seems cheap. It's in the same damn case as the X1 and F1. WTF?

**marshalolson** · 11-11-2006, 10:49 PM

you do not need to wave a digital beacon around like you do on an analog. turn/orient with your body, keeping the beacon relatvely stable.

basically just put it on your belt buckle, find the flux line, and jog to the victim. super easy.

**Hugh Jardon** · 11-14-2006, 10:21 PM

I know. I have been using a Tracker for like 5 years and before that was capable of doing induction method searches with an F1. I think the D3 is just a repackaged X1. Nice bright light but that is about it. I am not interested in it. Bummer of an effort in my opinion. But each to their own, it's cool you are stoked with it.

**mtcham** · 11-15-2006, 01:08 AM

The ortovox d3 is listed on most internet sites as being a digital (40m)/ analog (70m) beacon. This is a digital beacon with a 40m range-no analog. Verified by Ortovox HQ and testing on a marked football field for range.

**andersmalmberg** · 11-22-2006, 10:08 AM

This might be an interesing read:

http://www.beaconreviews.com/transce...htm#Ortovox_D3

**Jonathan S.** · 11-29-2006, 03:01 PM

Combine all the features and options of the Opto 3000 and DSP.
Now multiple by a factor of . . . oh, I don't know, something or other.
That's basically the Pulse.
From a techno-gee-whiz design standpoint, it's amazing. (The vitals transmission is almost a trivial element.)
From an idiot-proof standpoint, well, I have to find some other testers to judge that...

**SDW** · 12-04-2006, 08:08 AM

Since the S1 won't be available to most of us this season, it seems the question is who wins in Pieps DSP vs. Barryvox Pulse. Yes, the D3 is also a 3 antenna beacon and may be compared to the DSP and Pulse. I wasn't super impressed by it, so I didn't put it through the tests that I did the DSP and Pulse.

I've posted a head-to-head here:

http://lotsadv.com/forum/showthread.php?p=78

Summary - each beacon does a great job eliminating spikes and nulls, greatly easing searches for deep burials. Each beacon also makes searching for multiples much easier. They each have their problems; the Pulse gets confused between overlapping signals, and the DSP doesn't always "mark" on first try. Both beacons suffer from occasioanl "ghosting." (Note - DSP used did NOT have latest software update)

The Pulse is quicker to pinpoint, but less accurate than the DSP - this is really splitting hairs as both beacons are great at this due to their third antennae. At a 1 meter burial, the Pulse pinpointed to within 1 square meter, and the DSP pinpointed to within 1/2 square meter.

The DSP has a greater receive range accross all axes, but this may or may not be relevant dependant on the searcher's technique.

The Pulse offers analog audio - great for those used to analog beacons, and it's fairly programmable.

Each beacon offers additional bells and whistles, discussed in the full review.

**Jonathan S.** · 12-04-2006, 09:13 AM

I've read your review, along with references to it at three different websites, and although your review contains lots of helpful material, I think the entire notion of a Pulse vs. DSP "head-to-head" test is somewhat misleading: the main differences between the beacons are not in the details of pinpointing, etc., but in their entire approach to the user interface and features sets. Same thing for the D3, for which a DTS "head-to-head" has some meaning, but otherwise, it's almost apples & oranges. In other words, a "head-to-head" Pulse vs. DSP test is like a DSP vs. F1 test: I'm not saying one is overall better than the other, but focusing on range, pinpoint, etc. tests is just missing the bigger picture.
By way of (not-quite-perfect) analogy, it's like a "head-to-head" test of the Dynafit Speed Lite vs. the Naxo nx21: they both do the same thing, but they appeal to users with such different preferences.

**SDW** · 12-04-2006, 09:30 PM

Jonathan S. - I think a head-to-head is very appropriate, as each beacon uses three antennae to eliminate spikes, each beacon attempts to provide a victim count, and each beacon has a "mark" function to assist with multiple burials.

Quote: "a "head-to-head" Pulse vs. DSP test is like a DSP vs. F1 test" Since the F1 uses 1 antenna, does not attempt to quantify a victim count (though this is inherently and roughly possible due to analog audio) and has no "mark" function (and has no digital read-out nor other bells-and-whistles like the Pulse and DSP) I must disagree.

As far as user interface - I think it's clear that the Pulse and DSP are much closer in their approach than the D3 is to either of them; the D3 takes a minimalist approach and only provides a directional and a distance, while the Pulse and DSP attempt to provide the user with more info.

I also think a head-to-head is appropriate simply because I know many people who are considering upgrading beacons this year, and the Pulse and DSP (and the S1, which like most folks, I'm unable to test at this point) have been the most hyped.

**Jonathan S.** · 12-04-2006, 10:00 PM

Debating this debate quickly becomes rather pointless, but I still think your comparison focuses on the trees and misses the forest (or however that saying goes...). That is, the Pulse takes a radically different approach to its user interface and functionality, with a more computer-like screen (capable of displaying just about anything, and in all major ski-nation languages, including safety message from my wife on start up), soft keys, allowing the user to scroll through different beacons, switching into analog mode (programmable for two different options) etc. By contrast, the DSP keeps everything much more streamlined, with just two buttons (perhaps three with the 3.1 upgrade?), whose functions are fixed (i.e., scan and mark). One of these days I'll count up exactly how many different functions can be performed using different combinations of the Pulse's two soft keys. (Even how long a Pulse beacon was buried and during what portion of that vital signs were transmitted ... and for the past several burials too.)
And once again, I'm not saying this necessarily makes the Pulse better, but it is far different from the DSP. (And once again the caveat that I haven't seen the S1 yet.)