Gaia theory: Are we doomed or what?

[Spats]

we can affect change, but to say that what we're doing will cause irreparable damage is the height of idiocy.

No, it's a fact.

You never stop, do you? You just keep flatly stating things that are factually wrong, over and over again, as if that will somehow make them true. It works for politicians on TV because most Americans don't bother to check facts and there is no opportunity for rebuttals, but it doesn't work here on an open forum.

Just one example: remember the "cradle of civilization between the Tigris and Euphrates" from sixth grade social studies? How agriculture first took hold there in the fertile bottomlands? Then how come that entire part of the Middle East is a DESERT now?

We cannot destroy the earth, but we can easily destroy the biosphere that lets us live on it. The dinosaurs didn't make it, and if we don't shape up, neither will we.

[mr_gyptian]

No, it's a fact.

You never stop, do you? You just keep flatly stating things that are factually wrong, over and over again, as if that will somehow make them true. It works for politicians on TV because most Americans don't bother to check facts and there is no opportunity for rebuttals, but it doesn't work here on an open forum.

Just one example: remember the "cradle of civilization between the Tigris and Euphrates" from sixth grade social studies? How agriculture first took hold there in the fertile bottomlands? Then how come that entire part of the Middle East is a DESERT now?

We cannot destroy the earth, but we can easily destroy the biosphere that lets us live on it. The dinosaurs didn't make it, and if we don't shape up, neither will we.

I thought Saddam drained a swamp there. I could be wrong again, though.

being the nonbeliever that I am, the tigris/euphrates cradle of civilization doesn't really hold water. Again, I might be wrong but it has been proven to the best of our ability that human civilization began in the african sub continent.

[EPSkis]

The dinosaurs didn't make it, and if we don't shape up, neither will we.

Perhaps not - but life, as it has done for millions & millions of years before we got here ~ will go on.

[iceman]

The Tigris/Euphrates valley was certainly the cradle of "modern" "civilisation". It was a desert long before Saddam came along, although draining the marshes didn't help anything. Why it became a desert is beyond me, but I would posit that "lack of rainfall" might be an issue.

In other words, who the fuck knows? Pointing fingers at a climactic change event that occurred ~2500 years ago is stupid, let's at least try to focus on the present and the future.

[iceman]

Perhaps not - but life, as it has done for millions & millions of years before we got here ~ will go on.

No golf courses in a global desert, dude. Think about that.

[EPSkis]

No golf courses in a global desert, dude. Think about that.

Astroturf mats work like a charm in Dubai ~ I would imagine they'd work just as well in say........Denver.

[iceman]

Astroturf mats work like a charm in Dubai ~ I would imagine they'd work just as well in say........Denver.

Or Nome, but I agree, you got me there.

[Rasputin]

The Tigris/Euphrates valley was certainly the cradle of "modern" "civilisation". It was a desert long before Saddam came along, although draining the marshes didn't help anything. Why it became a desert is beyond me, but I would posit that "lack of rainfall" might be an issue.

In other words, who the fuck knows? Pointing fingers at a climactic change event that occurred ~2500 years ago is stupid, let's at least try to focus on the present and the future.

Agreed, remember this?

[iceman]

Agreed, remember this?

I missed that thread here but read about it elsewhere; that is some fucked-up shit. Sign of the apocalypse? Fo sho.

[splat]

Nuthin a lil ole nooklear winter won't slow down.
W can can do this!
Don't be so gaia, or mr e will call the thought police on you.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Pretty amazing there are still people out there disbelieving global warming and the human role in it. 10 years ago I could see having some doubts, but at this point it pretty much puts you in the camp of the Flat Earthers.

Too bad these Republican fucks have set us back during the past six years, maybe we'll start seeing some change when control of congress changes (hopefully in both houses) in November.

[Rasputin]

I missed that thread here but read about it elsewhere; that is some fucked-up shit. Sign of the apocalypse? Fo sho.

Kind of lends gravity to "and a third part of the sea was turned to blood" doesn't it?

[Trackhead]

Any good is better than nothing. But I have to believe that China and India are going to continue contributing to the problem at steadily increasing rates, with limited or no effort to help mitigate the problem.

Nothing will change soon enough. We're too stupid as a species to look into the future. We will evolve ourselves off the planet, or to the poles.

Everybody points the finger at politicians, which is easy to do. Then we all sit here and do nothing in our personal lives to change matters. Nobody is willing to sacrifice, myself included.

I have only known one person in my life that walks the walk of environmentalism. He posts here. If everyone lived like he did, then maybe we'd make progress. Fact of the matter is, nobody will make the sacrifices necessary. Myself included. I'm too selfish I guess.

[Cyber Cop]

Man's ego baffles me. The fact that we think we can damage the earth is perhaps the greatest warp in perception humans have ever deluded themselves with. The only thing we have to fear is our own extinction. The earth will be here long after we are gone. It will heal itself and move on sans humans.

I was pretty sure the whole rock was gonna disappear. Thanks for setting us straight.

note to self, rock will not disappear if we fuck shit up.

[MeatPuppet]

The guy has a lot of valid points & I believe we are really f*cking up the planet, but less than 20 years for this to happen? I find that hard to fathom.

If he is right, and that is a big doubtful if, it could very easily happen in 20 years. Non linear growth is very hard for us to deal with intuitively. It's like the penny on the chess board. Double it every square and by the time you get to the last square you are dealing with millions of dollars. Who would have thought?

By the same token, time sequences are also very difficult for us to deal with. For example, take a 12 year old kid and study his growth for six months. Then take that data and predict where he will be 20 years down the road. If all you have to work with is that six months of data, you are going to have a 32 year old guy that is 50 feet tall and weighs 30,000 pounds.
Than, go ahead and throw in feed back loops and delayed reactions(which you have with the earth's biosphere), and the idea of an accurate prediction of what the environment is going to be doing 20 years down the road becomes almost laughable.

That's why, 30 years ago we were worried we were entering a new ice age and now we are worried the earth is going to cook us.

I'm not saying we should be indifferent to what is happening, I just wouldn't get to worked up over predictions like this.

[MeatPuppet]

being the nonbeliever that I am, the tigris/euphrates cradle of civilization doesn't really hold water.

Uhh, yeah, it kind of still does.

Again, I might be wrong but it has been proven to the best of our ability that human civilization began in the african sub continent.

Uhhh, no. The earliest homo sapien remains have come out of the African sub continent, but civilization as we know it(agriculture, government, laws, etc) were first seen in the Fertile Crescent.

[TannerP]

I was watching this Super Disasters show on the History channel the other day, and scientists were saying just the opposite. They were saying that within the next 25 years temperatures could drop as much as 10 degrees. They were referring to it as a Little Ice Age caused by a change in the North Atlantic Current.

i loved that episode the history channels awesome and the little ice age kicks ass thats when the good ol us of a got our independance but anyways thats a possibility. it like a paradox. i think that the reason tempuratures seem warmer are because we had a little ice age for quite a while and now were coming out of it. but i agree totally that we need to cut down on fossil fuels and switch to more eco friendly solutions like ethanol.

[Rasputin]

If he is right, and that is a big doubtful if, it could very easily happen in 20 years. Non linear growth is very hard for us to deal with intuitively. It's like the penny on the chess board. Double it every square and by the time you get to the last square you are dealing with millions of dollars. Who would have thought?

By the same token, time sequences are also very difficult for us to deal with. For example, take a 12 year old kid and study his growth for six months. Then take that data and predict where he will be 20 years down the road. If all you have to work with is that six months of data, you are going to have a 32 year old guy that is 50 feet tall and weighs 30,000 pounds.
Than, go ahead and throw in feed back loops and delayed reactions(which you have with the earth's biosphere), and the idea of an accurate prediction of what the environment is going to be doing 20 years down the road becomes almost laughable.

That's why, 30 years ago we were worried we were entering a new ice age and now we are worried the earth is going to cook us.

I'm not saying we should be indifferent to what is happening, I just wouldn't get to worked up over predictions like this.

Yes, and 40 years ago people were worried that DDT was working it's way up the food chain to the primary predators, oops, bad example.

Seriously though, whether we get cooked or frozen, any student of climactic change can see that something is in the offing. Perhaps it is a cyclical change which has been accellerated due to humans' activities, and perhaps it is the wrath of a cruel overlordish deity (or maybe the cumulative effect of an imbalance between the conscious and subconscious?), but it really doesn't matter. This planet is going to change significantly, and no amount of denial will prevent it from happening.

[HyRUPz]

He put out another good book a while back called "Gaia: Guide to Planetary Management" ... pictures and charts galore - interesting theory looped in about carrying capacity, resource depletion, etc.

Agree that China/India are not controlling their resource consumption. Is it really too late to turn the ship around ... hope not. But as a species, I'd have to say we're collectively pretty stupid as far as resource management. Lastly, I'm no scientist, but on average, Denver has been getting hotter and drier every year since I first moved here in 76.

And global diming might be a bigger concern than global warming, evaporation rate related.

.02 given.

Might be going to hell in a bucket baby, but at least I'm enjoying the ride ...

[Buster Highmen]

we can affect change, but to say that what we're doing will cause irreparable damage is the height of idiocy. We're pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

The doom and gloom room is getting crowded these days.

Man's ego baffles me. The fact that we think we can damage the earth is perhaps the greatest warp in perception humans have ever deluded themselves with. The only thing we have to fear is our own extinction. The earth will be here long after we are gone. It will heal itself and move on sans humans

Dodo birds, carrier pigeons, the moa, Haast's eagle (Harpagornis moorei), the Tasmanians and the Beothuk might lend some data to oppose these posits.

What constitutes irreparable damage? If we can't blow up the earth, is that a rationale for unbridled avarism? I'd guess we better do nothing because that's what everyone else is doing. Or better yet, better get mine now.

[Cornholio]

Agree that China/India are not controlling their resource consumption.

Do you own a car? An air conditioner? Do you eat meat? Do you buy food from all over the planet? Do you buy non-carbon-neutral power?

I do too. So let's not go pointing fingers so easily.

[iceman]

global diming

Say what now?

[Keoni]

Like the world is getting dumberer? Or, soon We won't need sunglasses?

[HyRUPz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming ...

and yes, I'm a consumer/poluter like you ... but China and India have over 3 billion people combined vs USA's 260 million consumers ... scale of consumption once China/India become more consumptive is scary IMO.

What do I know, I just want to ski pow.

[summit21]

Man's ego baffles me. The fact that we think we can damage the earth is perhaps the greatest warp in perception humans have ever deluded themselves with. The only thing we have to fear is our own extinction. The earth will be here long after we are gone. It will heal itself and move on sans humans.

Props to you truth, I agree 100%. We as humans greatly overestimate our impact on this planet. It was just a few months ago that scientist said the ozne hole is shrinking and will close within the next 50 years.
From the BBC:"An international group of scientists is predicting that the hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica will shrink and close within 50 years."
Millions of years of the Earth going through heating and cooling cycles, and b/c of a temp. increase since man has kept records its b/c of MAN? Doubt it.
Too many things that we do not have any control of that affect global temperatures, i.e..solar activity on the sun being 1.