ABS Avy Pack-Who's buying one this season?

**Trackhead** · 08-26-2006, 10:28 AM

On our drive to the Tetons last night, we discussed the futility and fatality of beacon searches and the likelyhood of finding your partner dead. We had both been eyeing these for a few years, but haven't plunked down the $700+ for one yet.

Fuck that. I'm buying one this year for sure. Yeah, it's heavier, but with the 98% survival rate, you CAN'T NOT consider using one. It seems retarded to spend nearly $400 on a new beacon when it will likely only help find your carcass.

Come November, I will be skiing with the ABS pack on most of my tours. $750 is cheap life insurance.

ABS pack info.

Anyone have one yet?

**summit** · 08-26-2006, 10:37 AM

$910 for the 30L Escape pack... don't forget you have to buy the $225 cannister trigger system to make them work.

$1135 for a 8+lbs 30L pack that probably decreases your chances of injury/burial if you are caught in a slide and if you are able to pull the twin triggers.

I question their 98% statistic.

**Trackhead** · 08-26-2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Summit

$910 for the 30L Escape pack... don't forget you have to buy the $225 cannister trigger system to make them work.

$1135 for a 8+lbs 30L pack that decreases your chances of injury/burial if you are caught in a slide and if you are able to pull the twin triggers.

I question their statistics.

What's it cost for a funeral, or cremation?

Remember, the prices on the site are Canuks. So the price you quoted is about $900. Still expensive, but again, it greatly improves chances of survival, not body recovery.

Why do you question the statistics? They are certainly better than with just a beacon and a bunch of folks who don't practice enough, myself included.

I waste so much money on eating out, and other crap, that this doesn't seem like much money. And it is well spent.

**Tri-Ungulate** · 08-26-2006, 10:48 AM

Whatever happened to MtnLion's potential prodeal (or used deal) on the ABS packs?

The 98% is from reasonably good studies, though there is a degree of retrospective bias in the way the data was gathered.

I'm actually thinking more along the lines of getting an AvaLung pack - more for the convenience, since I already have an AvaLung.

**Meathelmet** · 08-26-2006, 10:48 AM

Already have one.

Used last season and couln´t be much happier.
There is room few minor improvement but otherwise: Grade A-

And that summit guy has a unmatched ability to whine and twist all the facts to fit his own view of the world..

Trackhead,check out some old threads on the subject.
There was (still is?) some sale´s in www.sport-conrad.de in the sonderangebote section. At some point in the spring they even had the larger (45?L) version there on reduced price. No need to pay 1100$ for anything unless you are a complete git.

**summit** · 08-26-2006, 10:52 AM

I question their statistics. 98% of what? All avalanches where the wearer has the pack?

Anyone have any real data on what the survival rate is for all avalanche incidents? Lots of people get out, are partially buried, not even carried... I bet it is actually pretty high... (and it is hard to say... so many small incidents without consequences are not reported, but I bet they were for the ABS study)

The real statistic is: what is the overall IMPROVEMENT in survival rate vs no ABS?

I know many who would benefit from spending money on an avi class instead.

Additionally, the pack is quite heavy as well as expensive, and the ones I have seen haven't fit me or my gear well. I ski for fun. I attempt to minimize risk. If I have to spend all my money to buy a poorly fitting heavy pack such that it makes it a lot less fun to hike up to my turns, am I winning? It is all a risk/benefit analysis. All BC skiing is. Maybe the ABS pack is a GREAT idea, maybe it isn't the best choice. Maybe it varies by person. I'm not sure. I'm not set in my mind yet.

If weight and cost are no issue, I'll design you an armored suit with a SCUBA tank and an escape rocket + parachute.

**Tri-Ungulate** · 08-26-2006, 10:54 AM

The Brugger and Falk paper is here.

Although it is on the ABS pack systems website, the company did not commission the report and Brugger and Falk received no payment from them.

**Trackhead** · 08-26-2006, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate

I'm actually thinking more along the lines of getting an AvaLung pack - more for the convenience, since I already have an AvaLung.

Yeah, the BD avalung packs look nice. But I question my ability to get that tube in my mouth, and keep it there.

Anyone wanna buy an Avalung?

And with the weight argument, I could care less. I don't carry water anymore, now that I have a Jetboil that weighs less than a quart of water.

Yeah, tech talk.

**Trackhead** · 08-26-2006, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Summit

If weight and cost are no issue, I'll design you an armored suit with a SCUBA tank and an escape rocket + parachute.

Sign me up! Does the rocket suit also work to propel me, so I don't need to hike?

I think you're on to something.

**Trackhead** · 08-26-2006, 10:58 AM

If nothing else................

**shmoesmith** · 08-26-2006, 11:12 AM

I carry the beacon/probe/shovel/avalung combo. I find that you do need to practice not so much with the beacon (barryvoxes are easy to use) but differentiating between a person/burried pack, and avy debris with yoru probe can be hard to learn. As far as the avalung's ease of use, I have heard from several people that they are easy to get into your mouth and hold there, even when tumbling down a mountain

. That said, I have been burried (very shallow burial) before, and the snow tries and rip everything it possibly can off of you. That is why I go withg the avalung II because it is smaller and harder for the snow to catch ahold of when tumbling...I've had backpacks come off before during a hard tumble, so I dont trust the avalung backpack setup.

**Hacksaw** · 08-26-2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

(snip).... I don't carry water anymore, now that I have a Jetboil that weighs less than a quart of water.

"Watch out where the Huskeys go, don't you eat that yellow snow."

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Any way, I would never say using an Avalung or an ABS pack is a waste of time. But, you should remember that these items of equipment do not guarantee that you will survive and avalanche. The truth is that you can still die of blunt trauma from smacking into a tree or boulder, while you have an Avalung or ABS pack on. Approximately 20-25% (depending upon who's data you look at) of folks die from blunt trauma during an avalanche. So, don't fall into thinking that because you have your trenaceiver, Avalaung and ABS pack, that you can push the limits and ski what ever you want. I often see people getting caught up in what gear they have. When they really should get more into what avalanche skills they have (terrain recognition, snow stablity evaluations, snow and weather observation skills, smart travel skills, etc...). I think the main thing to remember is that you don't want to get caught in an avalanche in the first place.

Cheers,
Halsted

**spoood** · 08-26-2006, 12:10 PM

I like setting them off in trams. The best way not to get caught is to use your head, not some piece of gear.

**edg** · 08-26-2006, 12:13 PM

You don't use this not to get caught, retard, it's to aid you if you do.

edg

**spoood** · 08-26-2006, 12:16 PM

Sorry to hear you're sooooo experienced in getting caught.

**edg** · 08-26-2006, 12:17 PM

Er, thanks?

edg

**powslut** · 08-26-2006, 12:18 PM

I ski with an older ABS backpack and it gives me a pretty good sense of security. There are some design flaws but I am pretty sure they have been addressed with the newer ones. The extra weight is a very small sacrifice to make. After a few days you will not even notice it anymore.

**Jer** · 08-26-2006, 12:39 PM

Gave it some thought. Givin' it some more.

**Pow4Brains** · 08-26-2006, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by powslut

it gives me a pretty good sense of security.

While I think this pack is a good idea and can increase your chance of survival, a false sense of security is what usually gets people in trouble in the first place…………..Nothing can replace sound judgment, knowledge and proper risk management.

**shmoesmith** · 08-26-2006, 12:54 PM

I carry all that stuff, not so I can ride anywhere I please, but incase something should happen again. My last incident has made me alot more cautious and made me go and get training. That said, there is an old saying that goes something along the lines of ' The snow doesnt care if you are an expert or not'

**powslut** · 08-26-2006, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pow4Brains

While I think this pack is a good idea and can increase your chance of survival, a false sense of security is what usually gets people in trouble in the first place…………..Nothing can replace sound judgment, knowledge and proper risk management.

Whether or not I ski with an ABS pack I go through the same decision making process and make the same decisions based on an evaluation process. It is a sound risk management practice to evaluate slope, stability, terrain and weather. It is also a smart risk management practice to mitigate the unknown and unpredictable characteristics of the snowpack by wearing whatever protective gear is available. Remember that even the most experienced guides and avalanche forecasters have perished in avalanches in conditions and terrain they felt safe. I just want to take every precaution available to ensure that if the worst case scenario does materialize I have the best possible chance of survival.

**corn dog** · 08-26-2006, 01:30 PM

I bought one about a year and a half ago. I really liked their survival rate versus beacon search. I bought an avalung before that. I didn't end up using the avalung much. Since its got to go on top of your clothing I found it annoying to have to take it on and off every time I wanted to add or subtract clothes. Also it doesn't help reduce trauma injuries at all. OTOH I seem to recall reading the people with the ABS packs tended to stay on top and not get carried as far, reducing trauma injuries.
The ABS pack is a little heavier and less convenient, but I don't really mind it at all. Most of my bc skiing is day trips or yurts so you're not carrying much anyway, and once its on I don't notice it.
If you go out bc skiing quite a lot in the Rockies seems like a non-trivial chance that something will happen sooner or later, even if you're reasonably careful. Also I like to do stuff like skinning Bridger by myself before and after season, if you're solo the ABS is all you've got anyway.

**zion zig zag** · 08-26-2006, 01:31 PM

Just thinking out loud here, would the pack in anyway increase the likelyhood of trauma since you would be surfing on top of the snow? I know that victims are usually found in the toe of debis anyway so maybe rate and distance traveled remains the same?

**Bunion 2020** · 08-26-2006, 02:37 PM

I know many who would benefit from spending money on an avi class instead.

And we have a winner......

Too many folks are depending on gadgets. Avoidence, good judgement and decision making is the best gadget.

You want to pop for an ABS pack? Go for it.

Whether or not you make a go decision should have exactly zero to do with what gear you are carrying.