ABS Avy Pack-Who's buying one this season?

[Alkasquawlik]

Yeah, the BD avalung packs look nice. But I question my ability to get that tube in my mouth, and keep it there.

I was pretty amazed watching my fellow peeps get rag-dolled by avys in AK and their ability to get that sucker in their mouth everytime. Kaj and Jon both got slaughtered by avys and both managed to get the tube in their mouth while getting peeled on an alaskan face. Made me a believer.


yet i was the only retard not wearing one

[SkiingBear]

Just thinking out loud here, would the pack in anyway increase the likelyhood of trauma since you would be surfing on top of the snow? I know that victims are usually found in the toe of debis anyway so maybe rate and distance traveled remains the same?

I'm thinking that the floating might reduce trauma. One, there are far fewer trees and rocks at the surface of the slide than there are buried below. I'm also guessing that by being on top of the slide you don't have the full force of the slide pushing on you.

That said, I'll take the new avalung pack...and do my absolute best to not need it.

[Will]

Too many folks are depending on gadgets. Avoidence, good judgement and decision making is the best gadget.

Doesn't the same logic apply to seatbelts and airbags? Wouldn't the money spent on those gadgets be better spent on defensive driving courses?

[Squatch]

Doesn't the same logic apply to seatbelts and airbags? Wouldn't the money spent on those gadgets be better spent on defensive driving courses?

No. Last time I checked, mountains don't all of a sudden avalanche on you.

The difference here is that avalanche danger is all self-imposed. You made the choice go up and ski that aspect. Danger in a car, on the other hand, is almost entirely from other drivers. If I was the only person on the road, I don't think I would need a seatbelt or an airbag. This is because I'm careful and drive within what is required by conditions. The danger to me is not the icy road, but instead the guy who is tired or distracted who swerves into my lane on the icy road, causing me to have to avoid them by driving into a ditch.

Avalanches don't do this. A southern aspect slope isn't going to jump onto the northern aspect that I'm skiing, and suddenly make that northern aspect unsafe. Yes, there's a certain amount of unpredictability with regards to snowpack stability, but it is much, much less than the unpredictability inherent in other drivers. And that's why we need seatbelts, regardless of defensive driving skills.

[Will]

If I was the only person on the road, I don't think I would need a seatbelt or an airbag. This is because I'm careful and drive within what is required by conditions. The danger to me is not the icy road, but instead the guy who is tired or distracted who swerves into my lane on the icy road, causing me to have to avoid them by driving into a ditch.

I have yet to meet a person who thought that they were a bad driver. One fellow, in the middle of giving me a lecture about being a safe and controlled driver who drove "within what is required by the conditions," spun out on an icy hairpin and went off the road.

Do you wear a beacon when you go BC? If so, why?

[f2f]

abstinence is the key! just stay at home and watch tv. and make sure your home is not in the way of any hurricanes or other natural disasters.

[Tri-Ungulate]

No. Last time I checked, mountains don't all of a sudden avalanche on you.

Avalanches don't do this. A southern aspect slope isn't going to jump onto the northern aspect that I'm skiing, and suddenly make that northern aspect unsafe. Yes, there's a certain amount of unpredictability with regards to snowpack stability, but it is much, much less than the unpredictability inherent in other drivers.

I guess you've got avalanches all figured out, then. Golly, the rest of us could sure learn a lot from somebody with your mad avalanche steeze.

[Platinum Pete]

I hate how threads like these become preachy lectures so often. We fucking get it, dudes: Being avy smart is the best way to not need rescue gear, gadgets, whatever, and no product should make you feel safer or effect your decision making. Welcome to the choir, preachers.

Corndog's point about the ABS packs being valuable to folks who bc ski solo is a good one. An avalung will not keep you alive long enough for the spring thaw, so you better stay on top!

[Trackhead]

I know many who would benefit from spending money on an avi class instead.

And we have a winner......

Too many folks are depending on gadgets. Avoidence, good judgement and decision making is the best gadget.

Wow, what a great idea. Never thought of that before.

The argument of spending the money on a class and avoidance doesn't really add a whole lot to the discussion. As those things should be assumed for any person with common sense and intelligence. How many avy forecasters do you know that have taken serious rides? I know quite a few here in Utah who have recently. Maybe they should have taken their own Avy I course. Point is, everyone makes mistake. Avy science is like medicine. We don't know it all yet.

Look, I've spent the last 18 years of my life in the "backcountry". Climbing ice, skiing mountains, slogging up mountains, whatever. I've taken the token avy classes more than once. I feel I've developed sound judgement in my years. But, that doesn't mean I don't want to augment my chances of survival. And I think no matter who you are, if you end up spending 100+ days/year touring, your chances of making a mistake are there.

[Tri-Ungulate]

I know many who would benefit from spending money on an avi class instead.

The "many" in his statement prolly wasn't referring to you, TH.

[SilentStorm]

I really like the idea of the ABS. Floating on top of the avalanche is the place to be if you do get caught. They tell you to ditch your skis and swim to the top for a damn good reason. Big air pontoons will bring you to the top--trust me, I have a degree in physics.

As Halsted pointed out, the danger in getting caught is much more than being buried:

Approximately 20-25% (depending upon who's data you look at) of folks die from blunt trauma during an avalanche.

And that's just deaths, not including injuries. You will get battered on the inside of an avalanche. I've never been in one (praise Jah), but I have been "thru the wash" plenty of times out surfing. I'm sure that feeling of complete disorentation and total lack of control when you are being tumbled around inside a wave is the same in an avalanche. The main difference is that in an avalanche you might go off a cliff, or hit buried or exposed rocks or trees. Also, you don't even have to hit anything to get limbs broken or spinal or neck injuries. Don't underestimate the power of the snow itself--it will bend you into a pretzel and snap you.

And ditto the point about decision making. While I agree that around here its preaching to the choir, I don't think its possible to over-emphasize that avalanche avoidance is the way to survive avalanches.

[Squatch]

I have yet to meet a person who thought that they were a bad driver. One fellow, in the middle of giving me a lecture about being a safe and controlled driver who drove "within what is required by the conditions," spun out on an icy hairpin and went off the road.

Do you wear a beacon when you go BC? If so, why?

I can't speak for others about their driving skills, but I can honestly say, for the driving I do, on normal, paved, controlled roads, I would fine without seatbelts or airbags. Fuck, I bike without a seatbelt or airbag...that's arguably more dangerous. Now, since cars already have seatbelts, I'll put it on even if I don't need it, mostly out of habit, but also because it's already there and it it's stupid not use a resource that's already been paid for, which has no noticeable downside to using.

As for beacon use, yeah. It's less important than a shovel and probe, and, to be honest, it's a body recovery tool. Yes, it serves some function beyond that, but I don't have any misconceptions about humans ability to rescue themselves vs. the force of an avalanche. Also, beacons are relatively inexpensive, at 1/5th the cost of an ABS, and are also easy to wear while skiing. As summit pointed out, it's a risk vs. reward thing. If I had different risks and rewards, I would reconsider getting one.

I guess you've got avalanches all figured out, then. Golly, the rest of us could sure learn a lot from somebody with your mad avalanche steeze.

"You know, sarcasm is like a second language to me, so I'm right there with you."

You can say what you want about my avalanche knowledge (and it is very little; I'm not trying to say otherwise) but that doesn't change the fact that avalanches are far less unpredictable than people.

And that's the whole point: you can't extend the same logic used in avalanche safety to driver safety because each situation brings very different types of risk.

Edit: trackhead makes good points about the whole thing. And I don't ski the way trackhead does, as I'm sure a lot of others don't as well. But people drive the way trackhead skis...at least 300 days a year, for many hours a day.

[Tri-Ungulate]

OK Squatch, sorry for the sarcasm. I might have read your post wrong, but it came across to me as if you felt like you knew enough about avalanches to stay out of them all the time. As mentioned earlier in this thread, even the best can get caught in all manner of unpredictable situations, and over-reliance on one's own or another's perceived avy-savvy is a well known heuristic trap, if you're into McCammon's paradigm.

In fact, IMO, the attitude that "I've taken my level I, II or III and have been skiiing in the BC for X years so I'm safe from avalanches" is only one step removed from "I have all this cool avy gear keeping me safe from avalanches." And as much as we all try to stay safe, we sometimes make unsafe decisions based on unconscious assumptions. I'm not pointing fingers here, as I make plenty of bad decisions myself, and I'm always learning about what I should or shouldn't be doing in the backcountry, being a relative newbie with only 16 seasons of touring under my belt.

Toys that improve our odds, however incrementally, are nice adjuncts to decision-making, if you can deal with the trade-offs (cost, weight, false sense of security).

[skiguide]

fair's fair. TH removed offensive material.

[natty dread]

The ABS pack is another tool you can use in the BC that could save you from death in an avy. Why anyone would argue against its use is beyond me. Of course safety/knowledge/experience/caution comes first, that is obvious, but shit happens.

[pointedem]

skiguide

WTF are you talking about?

[Trackhead]

The ABS pack is another tool you can use in the BC that could save you from death in an avy. Why anyone would argue against its use is beyond me. Of course safety/knowledge/experience/caution comes first, that is obvious, but shit happens.

2 pages of dribble summarized in one paragraph. Thank you.

And by the way, I found the pack for about $600/USD. So it's $300 less than previously quoted.

[Trackhead]

skiguide

WTF are you talking about?

I posted an 'offensive' photo of a dead, rotting dog that I encountered in a slot canyon in SW Utah. Not much unlike a dead carcass you might find in the woods, or on a hike. Much like the dead mtn goat I encountered with Tri-U, while skiing Dromedary. Or the countless other carcasses one stumbles across in the natural world.

Perhaps it was inappropriate.

[Bunion 2020]

The argument of spending the money on a class and avoidance doesn't really add a whole lot to the discussion.

Maybe in your neck of the woods this is the case. Round these parts I see a LOT of "dude can I borrow your beacon". Never mind that the mullet can't turn the fucker on and couldn't find water with it even if he fell out of the boat. Too many people in my area are clueless enough that they might believe that an ABS pack and an Avalung would cover them from all harm.

I was pretty amazed watching my fellow peeps get rag-dolled by avys in AK and their ability to get that sucker in their mouth everytime. Kaj and Jon both got slaughtered by avys and both managed to get the tube in their mouth while getting peeled on an alaskan face. Made me a believer

What about this really fine quote above. Gadgets.

As those things should be assumed for any person with common sense and intelligence.

Uh... yeah, right.

Well, you asked the question,

No, I am not running out and buying an ABS pack. That is my decision, I am not saying you should or shouldn't get one.

BTW, I spend a good portion of every day in avalanche terrain, have done so going on 24 years, have taken big rides, didn't really like em and still don't have all the answers.

[Trackhead]

^^^Bunion,

I understood your point as you initially stated it, and I agree on every aspect of it. In fact, on our drive back from Jackson today, we discussed at length the psychological aspects of wearing such a device. And we both came to the conclusion that we would make every effort to avoid having this device influence our decisions to ski a particular line.

This gadgetry vs. decision making has been an argument long before ABS packs. It was common, and still is common with beacons. As it should be.

I just got defensive and felt like you were sending your initial comments at me. Maybe that's where the discussion went awry.

[FREESKIER_FIVE-0]

Im gonna get the avalung bd pack. Cheaper, and i think that it will help in the rare chance that i get caught/buried. Checking a snowpack and seeing how unstable it is absolutely terrifies me. But there is always a chance.

[Toby]

As for beacon use, yeah. It's less important than a shovel and probe ...

I'd rather have a beacon than a shovel and probe. Not that I'd head out without any of the three, even though I'm not averse to touring solo.

TH, this thread has made me look at ABS packs again. Thanks. I may even buy your Avalung if you were serious - I've been meaning to get one. Size L? Avalung II? PM me with a price?

[Big Tim]

I always find it interesting when people act like it's your fault if you get caught in an avalanche. Like you weren't using your head or were taking unnecessary risks. But ya know shit happens. People get caught all the time skiing inbounds on controlled runs in Europe. There was some small bit of reassurance skiing in Urp last year with an Avalung Backpack. Unlike the Avalung it was always there and I wasn't skiing around the resort with an Avalung sash on the outside of my clothes like a sign saying something bad is going to happen to me today.........

BT

[Trackhead]

I wasn't skiing around the resort with an Avalung sash on the outside of my clothes like a sign saying something bad is going to happen to me today.........

BT

Good point.

[Toby]

I always find it interesting when people act like it's your fault if you get caught in an avalanche. People get caught all the time skiing inbounds on controlled runs in Europe.

Whose fault is it if not yours? I know if I get caught it'll be because I do something stupid. I'd classify skiing inbounds in certain areas in certain conditions in Europe as stupid.

Long example: many years ago I was skiing spring slush with a friend in Austria. As the day progressed we were sinking in to above ankle deep on a southern aspect. We stuck to inbounds but really should've gone home. At about 11am we were about to ski what was all season long a black run with bumps - totally compacted snow. I stopped above a rollover. My friend was behind and stopped below me, right on the rollover. A small slab broke off from him stopping, like 3yds wide by 0.5' deep. It slid about 5yds, then broke off a 5yds wide by 3' deep wet slab. The whole bump run slid about 100yds, with the bumps turning into Volkswagen sized lumps rolling down the hill. It stopped about 20yds above a top station of a chairlift with about 20 people in the vicinity. My friend about shat himself and went straight home in a cold sweat. I kept skiing and ended up getting my season pass pulled when one of the patrol bosses came across me. I made bad decisions - I thought it was compact snow and inbounds so I was safe. On the other hand, there was no overnight freeze and we were sinking into our ankles - clear warning signs. Me == stupid. The whole situation reminds me of the A-Basin slide a couple of years ago. I relied on others for my safety when I should've been making intelligent decisions myself. The next day orange warning lights were flashing at all lifts and everything inbounds off-piste was roped off.