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  1. #14851
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    they talked about that ^^ very briefly up here capitol gains on the principal res, i think which ever party did that would be down the road

    no mortgage interest deduction up here for a principal res
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  2. #14852
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    Heh. Ignant renters ranting at rich folk.

    They capped the mortgage interest deduction. What did the rich do? Make their second third and fourth homes into LLC biz ops. Now interest is deductible again.
    Winning!

    The Uber rich are the cockroaches of the world.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
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  3. #14853
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    Maybe we just get rid of the mortgage interest deduction? At this point, if you're itemizing, you're pretty rich, right?

    I say that as someone that is on the cusp of getting rid of a mortgage...
    Just bought a house in January and I’m pretty sure even with basically a full year of the most interest I will ever pay on this we will probably not need to itemize. So yeah, I’m right with you.

  4. #14854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Heh. Ignant renters ranting at rich folk.

    They capped the mortgage interest deduction. What did the rich do? Make their second third and fourth homes into LLC biz ops. Now interest is deductible again.
    Winning!

    The Uber rich are the cockroaches of the world.
    That is addressable
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  5. #14855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    Read that last night and it's both encouraging and depressing to see some data back up a situation we already knew. I'm curious to see what else ProPublica illuminates in future articles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    The Uber rich are the cockroaches of the world.
    While the Uber rich are often guilty of many things (see above), wouldn't their accountants and lawyers be the true cockroaches?

  6. #14856
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinevibes View Post
    Read that last night and it's both encouraging and depressing to see some data back up a situation we already knew. I'm curious to see what else ProPublica illuminates in future articles.



    While the Uber rich are often guilty of many things (see above), wouldn't their accountants and lawyers be the true cockroaches?
    Tax laws that allow a lawyer or accountant to "game the system" are the core issue. Given the chance we all would take advantage of any break given. You'd be stupid not to. Want change? Change the laws, even Buffett basically says that..

    The public shit on Trump because he takes/took those very same breaks. Yeah he was shit on for a ton of other very good reasons, but I always thought that tax shit was what all the wealthy did. The recent leak proves they are all mad guilty of that same shit, but it's totally legal.

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  7. #14857
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    He is being investigated for fraud, not gaming the IRS rules.
    Most legit rich people know that IRS fraud=jail time.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  8. #14858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    He is being investigated for fraud, not gaming the IRS rules.
    Most legit rich people know that IRS fraud=jail time.
    Yeah I get the current issues, but it's always been a sticking point with him in particular. I'm my eyes, a guy like Bezos not paying taxes is fraud just the same. He just hasn't been "investigated".....yet

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  9. #14859
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    Bezos, from what I understand, borrows off his net worth, which, as we all know, is considerable, instead of selling stock in Amazon. He is doing it in a super low interest rate environment, and probably has banks and financiers tripping over each other for the pleasure just to gain favor with one of the world's most powerful capitalists.

    You dont pay taxes on loan payments.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  10. #14860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post

    You dont pay taxes on loan payments.
    So you can get money by borrowing against assets that have unrealized/untaxed gains. But where do you get the money to make the payments without cashing something in and getting taxed?

  11. #14861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garbowski View Post
    So you can get money by borrowing against assets that have unrealized/untaxed gains. But where do you get the money to make the payments without cashing something in and getting taxed?
    But he gets a great rate, I'm sure. So maybe he borrows $100m and pays interest of $2m or something.

  12. #14862
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    But he gets a great rate, I'm sure. So maybe he borrows $100m and pays interest of $2m or something.
    Right, but he still has to pay back the $102m. I guess you turn around and invest with house money just need to beat the $2m plus your tax liability on the gain- or keep the gain unrealized except for the $2m and change.

  13. #14863
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garbowski View Post
    Right, but he still has to pay back the $102m. I guess you turn around and invest with house money just need to beat the $2m plus your tax liability on the gain- or keep the gain unrealized except for the $2m and change.
    I have a lot of theories about how you could set this up, but realized someone who actually knows has probably written an article about it, so not much point in my speculating. Having said that, wouldn't he just sell $2m of AMZ shares and pay the taxes? Then he gets $100m today and sells $2m worth of stock a year indefinitely to service the loan, paying 15% capital gains on his stock sales. Seems like a pretty good deal.

  14. #14864
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    You don't need to pay anything in payments when you are Jeff Bezos. Sure his debt keeps going up but he has billions backing it and he grows that $10M he just spent faster than whatever interest rate he is getting. So he owes $10.3 next year? The $10m of stock he didn't sell is now worth $11.6m.

  15. #14865
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    I have a lot of theories about how you could set this up, but realized someone who actually knows has probably written an article about it, so not much point in my speculating. Having said that, wouldn't he just sell $2m of AMZ shares and pay the taxes? Then he gets $100m today and sells $2m worth of stock a year indefinitely to service the loan, paying 15% capital gains on his stock sales. Seems like a pretty good deal.
    I don’t know if this explains everything, but from a NYT mailing.
    A voluntary tax
    It’s been a back-and-forth struggle over the course of American history: How much tax should the wealthy pay?

    In colonial times, parts of the North taxed the rich more than Europe did, with Massachusetts going so far as to enact a wealth tax that covered financial holdings, land, jewelry and more. Southern colonies, by contrast, kept rates low and collection ineffectual, to prevent taxes from undermining slavery by eroding the wealth of slaveholders.

    After the country’s founding, the low-tax advocates generally won out — until the 20th century, when soaring inequality, two wars and the Great Depression led Washington to create the world’s most progressive tax system. Then the situation flipped again, and top tax rates have plummeted over the last few decades.

    Yesterday, the news organization ProPublica published a scoop, based on the tax returns of thousands of wealthy Americans, including Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. An anonymous source sent ProPublica the material after the organization had published articles about the I.R.S.’s lax enforcement of taxes on the wealthy. (Here’s ProPublica’s explanation of why it decided to publish the new story, despite privacy concerns.)

    The tax returns offer details on a story that has long been clear: The wealthy now pay strikingly low tax rates.

    To take one example, Bezos’s wealth soared by $120 billion from 2006 to 2018, and his federal taxes during that time amounted to only 1.09 percent of the wealth gain. The situation for the average household was radically different: Its taxes amounted to more than 100 percent of its wealth increase.

    ‘Buy, borrow, die’
    A central reason that very wealthy people can avoid taxes is that the U.S. system taxes only so-called realized gains — like wages or stock sales. But the wealthy often live off unrealized gains — in the form of stocks and other assets that grow more valuable over time. The wealthy borrow against these assets to pay for houses, islands and private planes and then use a variety of strategies to avoid paying taxes on the debt repayment.

    One such strategy is waiting until after death to repay the loan — or what Edward McCaffery, a tax expert at the University of Southern California, calls “buy, borrow, die.” Robert McClelland of the Tax Policy Center called it the main revelation of the ProPublica story.

    All the while, the wealthy are often able to keep their taxable income low. In 2011, Bezos reported so little income that he qualified for — and claimed — a $4,000 child tax credit. In both 2016 and 2017, Carl Icahn, who’s a billionaire, paid no federal income taxes.

    Legal tax avoidance by the wealthy has become more widespread over the past half-century for several reasons. For one, inequality has soared, meaning that the rich have more wealth to protect. And tax rates have fallen significantly.

    “It’s amazing how much we’ve cut taxes even since 1997 — on dividends, the estate tax threshold, capital gains and the top rate,” Owen Zidar, a Princeton University economist, told me. “All of those things have become more favorable to the top of the distribution.” The decline in the corporate tax rate — effectively a tax reduction for shareholders — has also been important.

    You sometimes hear the cynical view that raising taxes on the wealthy is pointless, because they have the resources to evade any taxes the government tries to impose. But history suggests otherwise.

    While some tax avoidance is inevitable, the federal government has largely succeeded in raising taxes when it has tried. The very richest Americans paid more than 50 percent of their income in federal taxes during the 1950s and ’60s (and were less successful at shielding their wealth from taxation). Today, that percentage has fallen below 30 percent.

    There are three main ways to reverse the decline in tax payments by the wealthy, Gabriel Zucman of the University of California, Berkeley, said. One is a direct tax on wealth, like those proposed by Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Two is a tax on unrealized gains — assets that have become more valuable — as Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon has proposed. Three is an increase in corporate taxes, as President Biden favors. There are also more modest ideas, like a larger estate tax.

    Societies can choose how much they do or don’t tax their wealthiest people, Zucman said. “For billionaires,” he added, “the federal income tax — the pillar of the U.S. tax system — has become a voluntary tax.”

  16. #14866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    I don’t know if this explains everything, but from a NYT mailing.
    This was my area of expertise when I was a federal civil servant. It's interesting stuff and also kind of turns your stomach.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  17. #14867
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    This was my area of expertise when I was a federal civil servant. It's interesting stuff and also kind of turns your stomach.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    Well, go on, don't just leave it there.

    From the articles I have read and from some higher ups I used to deal with at a former employer, the company top brass were very good about the timing of stock sales to take advantage of other losses to minimize the tax bill. The CEO and chairman at my last employer, who owned at least 15% of the company paid him self a modest salary ($400k) but took a nice $1 per share in annual dividends. (Hey, I got some of that dividend money too, through the ESOP, just not the tens of million$ the CEO got every year.)
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  18. #14868
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    Remember this guy?

    listed at 710k
    bought for 822k
    then the new owner put it straight back on the market for 895k
    then after no action knocked hundred grand off his price
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...23624317_zpid/
    Well, like Icarus, his hubris cost him dearly. Closed at 805k

  19. #14869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    Remember this guy?



    Well, like Icarus, his hubris cost him dearly. Closed at 805k
    Seems like home prices have topped out. All the stupid money has been spent. Now it's the 2nd tier wannabes who lost bidding wars with less cash in their pockets to buy what's left over.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  20. #14870
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    Yeah something tells me this is going to end poorly.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/youre-cal...160016223.html
    Live Free or Die

  21. #14871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    Seems like home prices have topped out. All the stupid money has been spent. Now it's the 2nd tier wannabes who lost bidding wars with less cash in their pockets to buy what's left over.
    Hell yeah, I'm one of those 2nd tier wannabes. I'm actually in Bellingham for June, in a monthly rental north of town, just kicking the tires for a possible move this fall, so seeing that house close at $805k gives me a shred of hope. Still really planning on renting vs. buying though.

  22. #14872
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Yeah something tells me this is going to end poorly.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/youre-cal...160016223.html
    Yeah, as an armchair economist, that seems misguided as hell. Better to unfuck the zoning / permitting process and put that money into building housing.

  23. #14873
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    I'm glad to hear maybe the market has peaked... there has to be a top out on such rapid climbs... unless of course you want to play a game of:

    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Yeah something tells me this is going to end poorly.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/youre-cal...160016223.html
    Yay let's distort the housing market even more!
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #14874
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Yeah something tells me this is going to end poorly.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/youre-cal...160016223.html
    Why not start up the California Car Ownership Dream Fund?

    I saw a report the other night where some Mayors in small towns have proposed rezoning laws to allow for more multi-family housing units. That seems a better route to go.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  25. #14875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post

    I saw a report the other night where some Mayors in small towns have proposed rezoning laws to allow for more multi-family housing units. That seems a better route to go.
    Minneapolis did this in 2019- all zones allow multifamily. Not sure if it had any effect. https://www.redfin.com/city/10943/MN...housing-market

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