Real Estate Crash thread

[RootSkier]

There’s still Superior, lower taxes!

My mom and her entire side of the family are from Superior, but my grandpa and all his siblings (9!) all moved to Minneapolis en masse when they were young adults because there was absolutely no work there are the time.

Interesting place.

Hell of a bargain: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...79391323_zpid/

Here's what you can get for $128k (!!!): https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...79387558_zpid/

[MontuckyFried]

My mom and her entire side of the family are from Superior, but my grandpa and all his siblings (9!) all moved to Minneapolis en masse when they were young adults because there was absolutely no work there are the time.

Interesting place.

Hell of a bargain: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...79391323_zpid/

Here's what you can get for $128k (!!!): https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...79387558_zpid/

Dang. I just followed the map over a bit from your link to the Michigan UP and holy moly. I guess there ARE still cheap houses out there. Just probably not anywhere you can get a "good" local job, thus the cheap RE.

[Ted Striker]

Only 5 hours to Bohemia!

[Mustonen]

This house just went under contract for a bit over $800K.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...06371153_zpid/

[skaredshtles]

Dang. I just followed the map over a bit from your link to the Michigan UP and holy moly. I guess there ARE still cheap houses out there.

Told ya.

SHITLOADS of cheap housing in this country. In lots of places NOBODY wants to live.

[dunfree]

Told ya.

SHITLOADS of cheap housing in this country. In lots of places NOBODY wants to live.

Price is driven by demand, demand != want. Demand = want + money. Plenty of places people didn’t reality want live (Connecticut) that there was demand for because of money to be made.

[Ted Striker]

Price is driven by demand, demand != want. Demand = want + money.

Plus competition

[neufox47]

Higher prices means the cost of dirt goes up. It also gives builders a higher margin when materials and labor are "normal" therefore could hypothetically increase supply if they're already sitting on the dirt which many developers are and just need the trigger for profit. Hence, more supply.

If this is a fairness issue, why should a long term property owner have to move because it's not fair that someone had to rent and not own and it's their turn?

Now financing society, that's a completely different conversation.

You are talking about total supply. Everyone else is talking about regional supply. Eliminating prop 13 would incentivize people to move from their very expensive homes to cheaper places. Currently we incentivize people to stay put, or at least not leave CA. There are all sorts of boomers who would happily move to Nevada but don’t want to sell and give up their free lunch on super low property taxes. It also creates / allows people to pass down property to the next generation without a tax increase. I have two friends who have several “family homes” that have been owned for generations and they pay stupid low taxes. The houses are vacation homes or a ranch that is leased. If they paid market for property taxes they would likely sell those houses or at least rent them out. But currently the carrying costs are low enough to justify just sitting on it. It heavily favors old money.

The LA country club is the most egregious example, a golf course for the wealthy that has had its membership change almost completely since prop 13 was enacted, whose market value is probably $10s of billions, and they pay something like $50,000 in property taxes. It’s like the one place I’d approve the government seizing through eminent domain on the basis that their tax revenue would increase and be for the public good.

[Pow4Brains]

There’s still Superior, lower taxes!

Ashland and Bayfield are cool too. Amazing fishing, camping, hiking and if boating is your thing you can’t go wrong.

And the winters aren’t like they used to be.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Conundrum]

You are talking about total supply. Everyone else is talking about regional supply. Eliminating prop 13 would incentivize people to move from their very expensive homes to cheaper places. Currently we incentivize people to stay put, or at least not leave CA. There are all sorts of boomers who would happily move to Nevada but don’t want to sell and give up their free lunch on super low property taxes. It also creates / allows people to pass down property to the next generation without a tax increase. I have two friends who have several “family homes” that have been owned for generations and they pay stupid low taxes. The houses are vacation homes or a ranch that is leased. If they paid market for property taxes they would likely sell those houses or at least rent them out. But currently the carrying costs are low enough to justify just sitting on it. It heavily favors old money.

The LA country club is the most egregious example, a golf course for the wealthy that has had its membership change almost completely since prop 13 was enacted, whose market value is probably $10s of billions, and they pay something like $50,000 in property taxes. It’s like the one place I’d approve the government seizing through eminent domain on the basis that their tax revenue would increase and be for the public good.

I know I'm talking total. I even asked the question and you're the first to answer that others are talking regional. But really, Californians problems are Idaho's problems now. We're netting 30-40k of them per year. Get rid of prop 13 and do a bunch more move? Keep prop 13 and we get those that can't afford to stay in CA. I'm nominating Trump for governor here. He'll build a wall and make CA pay for it.

[schuss]

I know I'm talking total. I even asked the question and you're the first to answer that others are talking regional. But really, Californians problems are Idaho's problems now. We're netting 30-40k of them per year. Get rid of prop 13 and do a bunch more move? Keep prop 13 and we get those that can't afford to stay in CA. I'm nominating Trump for governor here. He'll build a wall and make CA pay for it.

The problem is that they're moving to Idaho AND retaining their properties in CA. Also, the supply infusion COULD lower pricing, meaning more people stay in CA and don't move to ID.

[Conundrum]

Either way, you guys think I'm huge proponent of prop 13. I'm not. I don't understand it completely. The whole conversation started with me saying there should be a way to somewhat control property taxes in areas experiencing high value increases on primary residences. Some don't agree with me. Some do. I'm all for paying a fair share but I guess we all have different definitions of what is fair.

[liv2ski]

I'm all for paying a fair share but I guess we all have different definitions of what is fair.

Exactly. Because Schuss is in a high tax area his panties are majorly twisting his junk and he is pissed everyone doesn't pay like him. Thing he forgets is a states right to pass local laws. CA just had 2 propositions on the ballot to change property tax rules. The one that would of made income property exempt from prop 13 protection did not pass and I found that amazing and dumb. The other which was a gift to Boomers from the CA RE lobby passed. Again, unbelievable and dumb in my opinion.
You guys who don't live in CA complain how prop 13 isn't fair (boo fucking hoo) but people in CA continue to support prop 13 and expand on it. As a newly retired jong, I thank baby jeezuz for prop 13 on a primary residence, especially when I see you guys getting re-accessed. You guys should be fighting to redress your states property tax situation and stop bitching about something that doesn't involve you.

[Toadman]

Plus competition

Don't forget supply.

[altasnob]

You guys who don't live in CA complain how prop 13 isn't fair (boo fucking hoo) but people in CA continue to support prop 13 and expand on it.

This is the hypocrisy of supposedly liberal places like CA. Fox news thinks CA is crazy liberal but in realty they have crazy regressive tax laws like Prop 13. Same can be said about WA, which doesn't have an income tax and has one of the most regressive tax structures in the US. This means single working class moms pay for everything while Bill Gates and Bezos don't pay shit. But WA and CA are liberal, right? Sure, there are outlier places like San Francisco, Berkeley, Seattle, who will vote against Prop 13 and vote for income tax. But just like Prop 13 is a political nonstarter in CA, so is an income tax in WA. In then end, the majority of CA and WA residents hate paying tax.

Why should people outside of CA care about CA property tax law? Prop 13 is what started the entire anti property tax movement across the west. Prop 13 was the impetus for WA's anti-tax, office chair stealing, crusader Tim Eyman, who has ensured WA's tax structure remains regressive. Tim Eyman is a master at getting anti-tax initiatives passed in liberal places like WA by the wording of the initiative. It will say, do you want $30 car tab fees, or $240 car tab fees? Do you think property tax should be capped at 1% increase each year? Of course people will vote for this stuff because they are ignorant and apathetic of the long term consequences. Not many willfully enjoy paying taxes.

Prop 13 is just an example of a NIMBY, racist, xenophobic law that pervades much of the US tax and land use laws. It just shows these laws exist in both places that vote for Trump and places that have duped people into thinking they are progressive.

[glademaster]

This is the hypocrisy of supposedly liberal places like CA. Fox news thinks CA is crazy liberal but in realty they have crazy regressive tax laws like Prop 13. Same can be said about WA, which doesn't have an income tax and has one of the most regressive tax structures in the US. This means single working class moms pay for everything while Bill Gates and Bezos don't pay shit. But WA and CA are liberal, right? Sure, there are outlier places like San Francisco, Berkeley, Seattle, who will vote against Prop 13 and vote for income tax. But just like Prop 13 is a political nonstarter in CA, so is an income tax in WA. In then end, the majority of CA and WA residents hate paying tax.

Why should people outside of CA care about CA property tax law? Prop 13 is what started the entire anti property tax movement across the west. Prop 13 was the impetus for WA's anti-tax, office chair stealing, crusader Tim Eyman, who has ensured WA's tax structure remains regressive. Tim Eyman is a master at getting anti-tax initiatives passed in liberal places like WA by the wording of the initiative. It will say, do you want $30 car tab fees, or $240 car tab fees? Do you think property tax should be capped at 1% increase each year? Of course people will vote for this stuff because they are ignorant and apathetic of the long term consequences. Not many willfully enjoy paying taxes.

Prop 13 is just an example of a NIMBY, racist, xenophobic law that pervades much of the US tax and land use laws. It just shows these laws exist in both places that vote for Trump and places that have duped people into thinking they are progressive.

Well said.

My dad instilled in me from a young age that paying taxes is an integral part of the social contract, and that you should count your blessings if you have to pay a lot in taxes.

[dunfree]

This is the hypocrisy of supposedly liberal places like CA. Fox news thinks CA is crazy liberal but in realty they have crazy regressive tax laws like Prop 13. Same can be said about WA, which doesn't have an income tax and has one of the most regressive tax structures in the US. This means single working class moms pay for everything while Bill Gates and Bezos don't pay shit. But WA and CA are liberal, right? Sure, there are outlier places like San Francisco, Berkeley, Seattle, who will vote against Prop 13 and vote for income tax. But just like Prop 13 is a political nonstarter in CA, so is an income tax in WA. In then end, the majority of CA and WA residents hate paying tax.

It’s almost like “liberal” California is an outdated overly simplistic caricature used too gin up division in rube nation by cynical media hacks.

But you can’t blame Prop 13’s origins on “liberal” California, it started in deep Red SoCal as a starve the beast anti-government measure, with all the implicit racism of tha5 place and that era and “letting old folks stay”

[BCMtnHound]

Well said.

My dad instilled in me from a young age that paying taxes is an integral part of the social contract, and that you should count your blessings if you have to pay a lot in taxes.

Yup. I lose no sleep over the taxes I pay. Most our property tax here is set by the municipality or regional district, so it is way easy to go to council meeting and protest tax increases that are deemed unfair, but most communities I have lived in are underfunded and need every cent they get for infrastructure.
The salaries of the muni staff sometimes do get the blood boiling, especially with the local nepotism and graft that is rampant at times, but that is not really a tax issue, or at least not solved by the tax argument.

[liv2ski]

BCMH, if the taxes were the same as my sister pays in Peachland I could live with that, but at the level some areas charge that are about 4X or more higher, no thanks. Something like CO seems fair to me.

[skaredshtles]

BCMH, if the taxes were the same as my sister pays in Peachland I could live with that, but at the level some areas charge that are about 4X or more higher, no thanks. Something like CO seems fair to me.

Colorado's property taxes are ABSURDLY low. Fortunately, the poor make up for it in high state+local sales tax.

[liv2ski]

As does everyone in CA with its high state taxes. With such a variety of taxes being paid, few will ever agree as to what is fair.

[sirbumpsalot]

As does everyone in CA with its high state taxes. With such a variety of taxes being paid, few will ever agree as to what is fair.

But many of you will agree that the rich are not paying this "subjective" fair rate/amount....whatever it may be defined?

[schuss]

Exactly. Because Schuss is in a high tax area his panties are majorly twisting his junk and he is pissed everyone doesn't pay like him. Thing he forgets is a states right to pass local laws. CA just had 2 propositions on the ballot to change property tax rules. The one that would of made income property exempt from prop 13 protection did not pass and I found that amazing and dumb. The other which was a gift to Boomers from the CA RE lobby passed. Again, unbelievable and dumb in my opinion.
You guys who don't live in CA complain how prop 13 isn't fair (boo fucking hoo) but people in CA continue to support prop 13 and expand on it. As a newly retired jong, I thank baby jeezuz for prop 13 on a primary residence, especially when I see you guys getting re-accessed. You guys should be fighting to redress your states property tax situation and stop bitching about something that doesn't involve you.

When have I said I don't like paying my taxes? I see first-hand how it's used and if anything we're undertaxed. Don't project your greedy opinions on me. Property tax is an incredibly useful local funding mechanism that lets people self-select (to a degree) on tax burden and self-fund local projects. You're just another entitled parasite focused on grabbing whatever you can, not caring if others are left holding the bag. Given that your only arguments are "oh the grannies", "I don't like paying taxes" and "stay out of it if you don't live here". It just proves it's not great law.

[liv2ski]

But many of you will agree that the rich are not paying this "subjective" fair rate/amount....whatever it may be defined?

No idea, but I would think there are not many loop holes to avoid paying the state what it wants if you report the income. Now if your accountants can come up with a way for you not to report income, then that loop hole is great for the owners in corporate America and shitty for everyone else.

[Conundrum]

When have I said I don't like paying my taxes? I see first-hand how it's used and if anything we're undertaxed. Don't project your greedy opinions on me. Property tax is an incredibly useful local funding mechanism that lets people self-select (to a degree) on tax burden and self-fund local projects. You're just another entitled parasite focused on grabbing whatever you can, not caring if others are left holding the bag. Given that your only arguments are "oh the grannies", "I don't like paying taxes" and "stay out of it if you don't live here". It just proves it's not great law.

What are your thoughts on new home impact fees to the developers?