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  1. #7751
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post

    It feels like you are arguing in the sense that every location is operating in a vacuum, where there would be a upper, middle and lower class within each locations boundaries.

    That is why I argue 250k, no matter where you live, makes you part of the upper class.

    250K allows this with zero thought or stress literally anywhere in the country, a "lifestyle" with zero stress, which has never been the case for any person in the middle class.
    A couple of edits - to emphasize those points.

    $250K household income is well above average, and either upper middle or upper. I do not think expenses should factor in an evaluation of working/ middle/ upper class. Part of expenses is location.

    Politicians like to speak about the middle class because everyone identifies with it, weirdly, except for the super rich (the 1/10 of the top 1%). The poor want to be middle class. The $250K earned income household that thinks they're struggling to make ends meet thinks they are middle class (where in my opinion, they are making poor lifestyle choices).

    If you live in Manhattan, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc - it costs more. That's your choice. Move elsewhere, earn less, see your dollar go farther.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  2. #7752
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    A couple of edits - to emphasize those points.

    $250K household income is well above average, and either upper middle or upper. I do not think expenses should factor in an evaluation of working/ middle/ upper class. Part of expenses is location.

    Politicians like to speak about the middle class because everyone identifies with it, weirdly, except for the super rich (the 1/10 of the top 1%). The poor want to be middle class. The $250K earned income household that thinks they're struggling to make ends meet thinks they are middle class (where in my opinion, they are making poor lifestyle choices).

    If you live in Manhattan, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc - it costs more. That's your choice. Move elsewhere, earn less, see your dollar go farther.
    This is a much more concise and better written version of what I am trying to say.
    Live Free or Die

  3. #7753
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    If you live in Manhattan, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc - it costs more. That's your choice. Move elsewhere, earn less, see your dollar go farther.
    Again - people live in big citys because they can make a lot of money. San Francisco has the highest disposable income for a city in the world. Arbitraging earnings may be a personally successful strategy but it is not a policy solution.

    I get this is never going to go anywhere here, because that arb is the TGRmessageboard goal - move your higher earning career to a tiny place in nowheresville with a lower cost of living. Good for you. Personal virtue doesn't mask policy failings.

  4. #7754
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    Listen, I pretty much think that life is difficult for everyone one way or another. Finances is just one piece of the puzzle. I get that you can make a fair pile of cheddar and still worry about paying the bills. As said, I have no idea and don't care where and how the lines of the classes get drawn. As usual, I don't try real hard to explain my point even if I have one.

    This is just another example of how I feel about whiny fucks that don't know how good they have it. It is part of the reason we can't get any real change in this country. Everybody up and including 250K income guy is all about what everyone else should do for him. 250K guy doesn't feel like he's got any meat left on the bone to help out anyone. So we just keep pointing fingers, supporting the consumer economy and acting as the exact pawns the ruling class wants us to.

    We act like we are outraged and uncomfortable while we are really fat and happy and perpetuating the system that we think we hate.

  5. #7755
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    I bet there's a lot of people here who paid more than $500 for ski boots (including Intuitions, custom footbed, fitting...)
    raises hand.

    Skiing is the cheap sport. These plastic bikes take all my money. Well, that and college.

  6. #7756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I know you're not this stupid. Just because the home costs $1M doesn't mean that "buying" the home means you have $1M in equity. It means you have a hudge mortgage payment.
    I was implying that by paying that huge mortgage payment they are building wealth over time that a middle class person will not attain. That point cannot not be undersold if you are saying you are just trying to get by. Sure you might be cash poor, but you are still building wealth at a 250k income level. That is a good decision in my book vs blowing it on hookers and blow in Vegas every year.

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    The key to his "argument" is the belief that debt is bad, only stupid people take on debt, and only the wealthy deserve the benefits of lifestyle. Including benefits like substantial housing appreciation, low crime, and good schools. And apparently outdoor recreation. It's the US class warfare and acceptance of lack of social mobility in a nicebow.

    A double-MD household just out of school might easily have $250k in income and a pile of debt. They also have a plan out of the debt because they've a useful skill and a reasonable career path.
    No, I don't think debt is terrible. I'm saying 250k allows you to take on a larger debt load, which most people that make that much have the smarts to leverage into investments (whether that be in a house in a great area, or close to skiing, etc) rather than blow it. It isn't class warfare either, but you can't just say its a 3 bed 2 bath I'm just an average guy, when it is in say the Hamptons without raising a few eyebrows.
    Live Free or Die

  7. #7757
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    because that arb is the TGRmessageboard goal
    Don't forget that you then need to try and change all the supposed short comings of said low cost of living place whilst complaining about how narrow minded and standoffish the long time residents are to newcomers.

    Side note: I'm gonna esquire today about whether our family income qualifies us for a new housing project designed for "working class". I'm guessing we will make too much money but the people that income qualify won't be able to afford it.

    I'm trying to game the system. Play the poor card in order to get rich. It has worked for some.

  8. #7758
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    It isn't class warfare either, but you can't just say its a 3 bed 2 bath I'm just an average guy, when it is in say the Hamptons without raising a few eyebrows.
    I have a 3 bed, 2 1/2 bath in Hampton and I am better than average skier.

  9. #7759
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Well, that and college.
    for you or your kids?

    That's something that really defines the categories. Middle class kids graduate with debt. Rich kids graduate debt-free.

  10. #7760
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    Hey, man... those are necessities. You make it sound like skiing is a luxury!
    I mean, you basically HAVE to do it if you choose to live in some areas. You have no choice.
    The walls of the bubble are thick in here.

  11. #7761
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcsquared View Post
    The walls of the bubble are thick in here.
    Indeed.

  12. #7762
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    Living in Boulder or Westchester or some nice burb of Chicago or SF or some other dynamic member or our economy is not a simple "choice". It's not that simple. Those are the places where the good jobs are, and many good jobs, so that you can survive financially in today's world. (I had a great job in upstate NY for three years, but had to move when it went to India. The other jobs were WalMart or fulfillment warehouses)
    But, much more important, those are the places that ambitious couples want to raise their children. Good schools, good after school activities, and, probably most important, socialization with the right people from an early age to get on the fast track. Thats what my town is all about. It's the town's reason for being. It's why families spend so much to be here. Little Johnny and Suzy are in training from age 2 to get with the right people and into the right program. That progresses all the way through free internships and low paying stating jobs at the right firms working with the right people. As we all know, it's not what you know, it's who you know. You ain't getting any of that in Podunk cheapville nowhere. Sorry.

  13. #7763
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    Luckily the Pew Research Center has a calculator to determine is you are middle class. It accounts for where you live.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/

  14. #7764
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    My high paying, desirable job is basically forcing me to live in an expensive and desirable locale.

  15. #7765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Living in Boulder or Westchester or some nice burb of Chicago or SF or some other dynamic member or our economy is not a simple "choice". It's not that simple. Those are the places where the good jobs are, and many good jobs, so that you can survive financially in today's world. (I had a great job in upstate NY for three years, but had to move when it went to India. The other jobs were WalMart or fulfillment warehouses)
    But, much more important, those are the places that ambitious couples want to raise their children. Good schools, good after school activities, and, probably most important, socialization with the right people from an early age to get on the fast track. Thats what my town is all about. It's the town's reason for being. It's why families spend so much to be here. Little Johnny and Suzy are in training from age 2 to get with the right people and into the right program. That progresses all the way through free internships and low paying stating jobs at the right firms working with the right people. As we all know, it's not what you know, it's who you know. You ain't getting any of that in Podunk cheapville nowhere. Sorry.
    Man... that sounds fucking AWFUL.

  16. #7766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Luckily the Pew Research Center has a calculator to determine is you are middle class. It accounts for where you live.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
    Looks like upper class.

    I should probably buy a new Porsche and get a monocle and a tophat to celebrate...

  17. #7767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    for you or your kids?

    That's something that really defines the categories. Middle class kids graduate with debt. Rich kids graduate debt-free.
    Kid. One is already out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Luckily the Pew Research Center has a calculator to determine is you are middle class. It accounts for where you live.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
    I threw in random numbers to see the breaking point. Between 170k and 175k is the transition from mid to upper in my region supposedly for a family of 4.

  18. #7768
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    Hey Benny, that basically is the definition of a choice. My wife and one of my employees both from "lower income Westchester". Both from very solidly middle income families. Get it? Wanna be the next Chet and Buffy? You know what needs to be done.

  19. #7769
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    It isn't class warfare either, but you can't just say its a 3 bed 2 bath I'm just an average guy, when it is in say the Hamptons without raising a few eyebrows.
    Because it then becomes a discussion about wealth, not income. dunno, maybe living in CA the distinction became abundantly clear where you'd have people who bought in in the 1970s who can barely afford to live on a meagre income cheek by jowl with people who bought in in the 2010s that might be paying in property taxes half of what their neighbor earns in a year.

    guess I'm having trouble squaring the "it's a poor lifestyle choice to live somewhere expensive" with "these areas provide better paying jobs and better returns on the biggest leveraged investment available to the middle class".

  20. #7770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Hey Benny, that basically is the definition of a choice. My wife and one of my employees both from "lower income Westchester". Both from very solidly middle income families. Get it? Wanna be the next Chet and Buffy? You know what needs to be done.
    Hey, I didn't write the rules. It's fucked up. We live in a very unequal society compared to when I was young, and it's going to get much worse with globalization, Monopoly power, automation, and tax policies that favor the rich. This tax bill will be the death of our society if it isn't reversed. Sorry, but kids from nowhere ain't going nowhere, and they aren't going to get on any track unless they are extremely lucky. Sad.

  21. #7771
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    Sorry, but kids from nowhere ain't going nowhere, and they aren't going to get on any track unless they are extremely lucky. Sad.
    That is the biggest bunch of suburban self-justifying bullshit I've heard in a while. You act like if you don't suck it up and live to a leafy commuter town keeping up with the Jones you'll be sucking dicks in truck stop toilets just to pay the bills. You say the same shit when talking about ski towns. Go ahead, live your own life. But stop it with the lack of choices, there are no other options, narrow mindset.

  22. #7772
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    Luckily the Pew Research Center has a calculator to determine is you are middle class. It accounts for where you live.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
    Smack dab in the middle of the Montana middle class. Makes me feel so...average.

  23. #7773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Sorry, but kids from nowhere ain't going nowhere, and they aren't going to get on any track unless they are extremely lucky. Sad.
    You mean the track toward working a shitload and having to live in a crowded place? Who the fuck wants to be on that track?

  24. #7774
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Smack dab in the middle of the Montana middle class. Makes me feel so...average.
    Same here, in Colorado. But it lumped me in with Aurora and Lakewood, so I'm probably nowhere near the middle in my actual town.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  25. #7775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    That is the biggest bunch of suburban self-justifying bullshit I've heard in a while. You act like if you don't suck it up and live to a leafy commuter town keeping up with the Jones you'll be sucking dicks in truck stop toilets just to pay the bills. You say the same shit when talking about ski towns. Go ahead, live your own life. But stop it with the lack of choices, there are no other options, narrow mindset.
    Sorry dude, but, that's the way things are. All of the Supreme Court went to just two law schools. Goldman Sachs does not hire from Ohio State, let alone some small private school. The media is a close knit circle of mostly Ivy Leaguers.
    Even if some average kid is lucky enough to get into Harvard, besides, you know, half of that class which is legacy, they will be saddled with crippling debt that will drag them down almost to their graves. They won't be able to innovate at take chances or afford to bring up their kids in a good school system Hell, they probably won't have kids. It's really fucked up, and getting worse. It's a mighty force around here. I look into the eyes of some of these mommys, and they are scary ruthless in their determination to position little Bobby and Mary on the right launchpad, no matter what. It's a fucking full time gig, and really expensive.

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