Real Estate Crash thread

[AdironRider]

Living the American dream does not require living in Boulder.

The "some communities" you reference are literally some of the most expensive places to live in the country, let alone the world. Seriously guys, get over yourselves.

The metric was "is 250k middle class", which you argued in Boulder was. I literally proved it decidedly was not (even taking into account your caveats of it being a single family home in said area, in a household with kids, and "only" making 200k, which with all of that is still top quarter). That is moving the goalposts and you are still wrong.

[Mofro261]

Living the American dream does not require living in Boulder, or Aspen.

The "some communities" you reference are literally some of the most expensive places to live in the country, let alone the world. Seriously guys, get over yourselves.

If you never move out of your mom's basement and don't pay rent, are you then "wealthy"?

[Kevo]

Between you and Kevo a middle class family should apparently be able to live in a single family home and have no stress about their disposable income or struggle raising a family as a result.

Yep, I think that is a good definition of middle class or perhaps upper middle class depending on the location.

[Danno]

Living the American dream does not require living in Boulder, or Aspen.

The "some communities" you reference are literally some of the most expensive places to live in the country, let alone the world. Seriously guys, get over yourselves.

so, if your current earnings only allow you to live in an expensive area at what would be a middle class lifestyle in most of the country, you are still upper class because those same earnings would allow you to live an upper class lifestyle elsewhere? Now we're at least getting closer to defining some terms. To you, cost of living, cost of housing, etc, is irrelevant? It's just "is that income such that if he lived somewhere else, he'd be balling"?

[AdironRider]

Aside from the $1 million home (which is just the cost of a single family home in some place) that's been the definition of the middle class US dream since WW2.

No shit man. The 1 million home and 250k income is literally what I am calling them out on, not the other way around.

[Mofro261]

Yep, I think that is a good definition of middle class or perhaps upper middle class depending on the location.

I disagree. Much to all of the Middle Class deals with stress over having the resources to live in a single family home, save for retirement, raise a family, take care of all basic needs, and still have disposable income.

To be stress free (what if you lost your job tomorrow?) is to have the assets in place to not actually need to work, which in my book means= wealthy.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
To be stress free (what if you lost your job tomorrow?) is to have the assets in place to not actually need to work, which in my book means= wealthy.

Kids would officially be on their own for college, though.

[AdironRider]

so, if your current earnings only allow you to live in an expensive area at what would be a middle class lifestyle in most of the country, you are still upper class because those same earnings would allow you to live an upper class lifestyle elsewhere? Now we're at least getting closer to defining some terms. To you, cost of living, cost of housing, etc, is irrelevant? It's just "is that income such that if he lived somewhere else, he'd be balling"?

No, I said 250k is still upper class even in those expensive priced real estate areas, and backed it up with census data.

[fastfred]

this is all pretty funny
solid work guys
a tad bit out of touch at how fucking poor most people are and how dollar general and dollar menus rules most peoples lives day in and day out, payday loans are real, high interest rates, and shit hole slum lords are standard

one of you computer jockies need to look it up, but colorado carries one of the highest household/car/credit card debts in the country

the more money you make the more you consume the more bullshit you have in your life, your house is a nice thing to value but it's only worth what someone is willing to pay and next year someone may not be willing to pay for a 1 million dollar fixer upper

[char_]

This is funny to me because I visited Boulder last month and said to myself "wow this is a really nice town full of rich people." I mean come on, Boulder is full of money.

The focus on geographic boundary is strange to me because you could work in the Denver area, make 250k, live in a place with low housing costs and suddenly be "wealthy" or "upper class"? But if you choose to keep up with the Joneses and live in a part of town with low housing costs you are barely making it as a middle class schlub?

[Danno]

Between you and Kevo a middle class family should apparently be able to live in a single family home that costs 1 million plus and have no stress about their disposable income or struggle raising a family as a result.

Yep, I think that is a good definition of middle class or perhaps upper middle class depending on the location.

I disagree. Much to all of the Middle Class deals with stress over having the resources to live in a single family home, save for retirement, raise a family, take care of all basic needs, and still have disposable income.

To be stress free (what if you lost your job tomorrow?) is to have the assets in place to not actually need to work, which in my book means= wealthy.

I agree with you, I think middle class living inherently does have some stress. Of course, one could have a secure job, but a middle class life means that if you lost that job and couldn't find a replacement in a reasonable amount of time, you might be in trouble. To me, the upper end of middle class is a nice single family home (but not "mansion"), being able to raise your family and save for retirement, and live a very comfortable existence, but still have to work and still have to exercise some financial restraint.

What makes "upper middle class" varies greatly by location. I mean, sure, someone who manages all of that while living in San Francisco is making money that would make an Iowan blush, but the reality also is that the income may not be transferable. The SF family couldn't make the same amount of money in Iowa (unless they're one of the lucky people who can be 100% remote). So just because it would be "wealthy" by Iowan standards doesn't mean the SF family is wealthy.

That's my definition, at least.

[fastfred]

This is funny to me because I visited Boulder last month and said to myself "wow this is a really nice town full of rich people." I mean come on, Boulder is full of money.

The focus on geographic boundary is strange to me because you could work in the Denver area, make 250k, live in a place with low housing costs and suddenly be "wealthy" or "upper class"? But if you choose to keep up with the Joneses and live in a part of town with low housing costs you are barely making it as a middle class schlub?

at the end of the day it's all about surrounding yourself with like minded people who have the same look as you the same upwardly mobile goals as you people on tgr and the families who make 200k plus aren't going to be living in the low cost parts of aurora

boulder is a joke might have been nice decades ago but it's full of gorganics who belch do as I say not as I do

[CascadeLuke]

Nice to see the thread rattled up and not be the cause 🤙🏼

[Danno]

This is funny to me because I visited Boulder last month and said to myself "wow this is a really nice town full of rich people." I mean come on, Boulder is full of money.

The focus on geographic boundary is strange to me because you could work in the Denver area, make 250k, live in a place with low housing costs and suddenly be "wealthy" or "upper class"? But if you choose to keep up with the Joneses and live in a part of town with low housing costs you are barely making it as a middle class schlub?

Yeah, Boulder is full of wealthy people, driving up home prices for the middle class that wants to live here but can barely afford it.

And the geographic boundary thing IS interesting. But I am not sure how to evaluate it. Yes, the person with a hypothetical $250k job in Boulder could choose to live in a modest home in Firestone, and while they would have a crappy commute, they would have a lot of disposable income living out there. They could also choose to live in town, with much higher housing costs and cost of living, and not have nearly as much disposable income. Are they both the same "class"? I don't know.

Usually, the geography doesn't quite have the same choice associated with it, because while people can always choose to live in outlying communities for a cheaper cost, in some expensive places there's only so far you can realistically go. If your job is in, say, San Francisco, you are going to face high prices no matter where you can realistically live. But re Boulder, there are options that might involve only a 30-40 minute commute that would slash your expense.

FWIW, while I am a homeowner here, I bought 14 years ago (and it was a home I couldn't really afford, with my 5% down and interest only loan, lol) and would not be considered "upper class" by any of the metrics discussed here; even Adironrider would begrudgingly have to admit that I'm middle class. I hate that my town is so expensive, but it's where I live, it's where my kid has grown up, and moving for the sake of reducing expenses isn't something we're willing to do (though it has been discussed many times).

[Kevo]

I disagree. Much to all of the Middle Class deals with stress over having the resources to live in a single family home, save for retirement, raise a family, take care of all basic needs, and still have disposable income.

To be stress free (what if you lost your job tomorrow?) is to have the assets in place to not actually need to work, which in my book means= wealthy.

My overall hypothesis is that to be middle class actually requires substantially more income than many people think. If you are struggling to get by and can't save for retirement and your kids education while paying a mortgage on an average house, you aren't comfortably in the middle class in my book. You may better be defined as lower middle class (really, a good definition if you are on the cusp and struggling), working class or perhaps lower class.

No, I said 250k is still upper class even in those expensive priced real estate areas, and backed it up with census data.

You have yet to define what you think upper class based on anything but income. It's fine if you want to argue that income alone defines one's class positioning, but I would disagree with that assessment and I would still refute your position that $250k in household income puts one into the upper class.

[jackstraw]

Yeah. lol - don't move from STL to Denver. Recipe for disappointment...

I'm wealthy, and the household makes just a bit over $200K in the Denver area.

And no, we aren't dentists.

Despite being wealthy, we live a very middle-class existence. No car payments (in fact, no vehicles have less than 100K miles on them), no 2nd house/condo in the mountains, no big fancy McMansion.

So perhaps it's possible to be wealthy AND middle-class at the same time?

My main "goal" (I use that term very loosely) is to retire *really* early compared to what is considered normal retirement age. And yes, I use the term "retirement" pretty loosely, too, as I will likely do something that pays me money even after I retire...

Ahh! I fucking knew it! When they wanted money to read that WSJ article (which I couldn't read) and you responded with a comment I thought...that bs artist is not in a van down by the river! You've disappointed me...man.

[CascadeLuke]

I’m working class in my area. Would live well elsewhere on same income. But the income most elsewhere is not as large.

[dunfree]

The focus on geographic boundary is strange to me because you could work in the Denver area, make 250k, live in a place with low housing costs and suddenly be "wealthy" or "upper class"? But if you choose to keep up with the Joneses and live in a part of town with low housing costs you are barely making it as a middle class schlub?

sure you could. but for the middle class in megapolises housing is a leveraged investment play and you'd miss out on appreciation (as well as having a higher risk of housing cratering, as happened in the '09 crash), as well as have to deal with more crime, lower quality schools, and a longer commute to jobs that pay well.

really reminds me how much of a groupthink bubble this place is sometimes - people live in the major metros because that's where jobs are. lots of them. almost of the good paying jobs in the US.

the dream small town intramountain west living is a fart numbers wise.

[Mr. Mike]

I’m working class in my area. Would live well elsewhere on same income. But the income most elsewhere is not as large.

working class shlub driving the Porsche...

[skaredshtles]

Ahh! I fucking knew it! When they wanted money to read that WSJ article (which I couldn't read) and you responded with a comment I thought...that bs artist is not in a van down by the river! You've disappointed me...man.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I didn't read the article. Fuck that paying for news shit.

And from what I know, The Dude NEVER worked, so will always be a richer man than ANY of us.

[skaredshtles]

working class shlub driving the Porsche...

Hey, man... cut him some slack. It's not like it's a *real* Porsche.

[char_]

In modern American vernacular, the term "middle class" is most often used as a self-description by those persons whom academics and Marxists would otherwise identify as the working class, which are below both the upper class and the true middle class, but above those in poverty. This leads to considerable ambiguity over the meaning of the term "middle class" in American usage. Sociologists such as Dennis Gilbert and Joseph Kahl see this American self-described "middle class" (working class) as the most populous class in the United States.[5]

-wikipedia to the rescue....

[Mofro261]

[fastfred]

I thought all you guys read the WSJ am I the only one that does?
maybe benny does

[skaredshtles]

I thought all you guys read the WSJ am I the only one that does?

You're the high-rollin' businessman...

maybe benny does

Naw - he's a destitute road biker living in some Godforsaken eastern hellhole.