Real Estate Crash thread

[dunfree]

Lets not focus only on the "EVIL GREEDY CORPORATIONS"....two play at that game:

I know of a person who works for a company in OREGON (10-13% tax rate), lives in CA full time as a covid WFH (similar tax rate) and owns property in WA and have listed their "primary residence" as WA with their employers and pay 0% state taxes and even haven't been to their WA place in well over a year or more.

This will all end soon as they are called back to work on site....but still...and I not naive to be convinced that this is a one-off.

that’s just tax fraud, dipshit.

yeah, everyone’s envious of the teat suckers who want more local services for their business that’s treated preferentially wrt to taxes.

[sirbumpsalot]

You guys just want to tax the shit out of everything don’t ya. And you really think that the benefit to society will be greater if you do and you’ll not see any of the consequences. “Yeah tax that guy out of business!” “Tax that guy because he ain’t from here!” Where does it stop? What are the consequences? It certainly is t black and white.

Envy...

[Ted Striker]

And turning residences into businesses as short term rentals hasn't caused any issues anywhere. Especially not Colorado.

Like button

[dunfree]

Taxing as commercial should be per diem for STR, not for owner occupied or LTR days.

ie, if I rent my primary residence out 2 weeks a year while I'm on vacation, then I pay 4% commercial and 96% residential rates.

If some owner STRs half the year and LTRs for 6 months in the summer, then 50/50.

if you really want to fix the problem, start an unoccupancy tax. 2nd 3rd 4th homes that are occupied 10% of the year are just as much, or more, of a problem than STR. Tax properties that aren’t being lived in.

[Benny Profane]

You guys just want to tax the shit out of everything don’t ya. And you really think that the benefit to society will be greater if you do and you’ll not see any of the consequences. “Yeah tax that guy out of business!” “Tax that guy because he ain’t from here!” Where does it stop? What are the consequences? It certainly is t black and white.

Oh boy, somebody is heavily invested in STRs, it seems.

[summit]

I think we definitely do need to consider that remote workers who live in different communities from their place of employment do not contribute to their community in the same way that they would if they were employed in the community most quantifiably in respect to resource competition and taxes (not) paid by the employers and in some cases by the remote worker. These remote workers derive great benefits from communities they live in while competing for resources with locally employed residents.

This was a small enough impact to ignore before COVID. Now it is not small in some communities. It is now hugely impactful to catastrophic in some communities, particularly areas like Tahoe, Summit County Co, etc. All of a sudden up to 1/3 of my avalanche students are remote workers who would have been local service industry employees who now can't find housing.

How do you address that to balance the missed taxes and increased burdens? I don't know.

[Name Redacted]

Nope, just sold em. Investing in commercial. Oh shit, are y’all gonna raise taxes on that too? Shit! Shit shit shit!

But I do realize the need for them in places like where I live. Like I said, it isn’t just black and white. You turn off that faucet things will change dramatically, and not exactly for the better.

[Ted Striker]

I know of a person...

You and I, and probably they know that's straight up tax evasion, but getting caught at the state level is somewhat unlikely. Although I also know a guy. It didn't end well for him.

[sirbumpsalot]

How many problems have been fixed with taxation? Or do we explain it away with the constant "the taxes aren't high enough" excuse?

The treasury will never be big enough for those with their hands in it.

[Ted Striker]

if you really want to fix the problem, start an unoccupancy tax. 2nd 3rd 4th homes that are occupied 10% of the year are just as much, or more, of a problem than STR. Tax properties that aren’t being lived in.

This is a good idea that generally goes nowhere because the tax code is for the rich, by the rich.

[skaredshtles]

You guys just want to tax the shit out of everything don’t ya. And you really think that the benefit to society will be greater if you do and you’ll not see any of the consequences. “Yeah tax that guy out of business!” “Tax that guy because he ain’t from here!” Where does it stop? What are the consequences? It certainly is t black and white.

I'm confused. If you're using a rental property COMMERCIALLY... why would you think that it should be treated differently?

And like I said - warn folks and have a phase-in.

[summit]

if you really want to fix the problem, start an unoccupancy tax. 2nd 3rd 4th homes that are occupied 10% of the year are just as much, or more, of a problem than STR. Tax properties that aren’t being lived in.

10% unoccupied is a hilariously low bar for such a tax. You'd exceed that if you took 5 weeks vacation and a few weekend trips.

[ColMan]

I know of a person who works for a company in OREGON (10-13% tax rate), lives in CA full time as a covid WFH (similar tax rate) and owns property in WA and have listed their "primary residence" as WA with their employers and pay 0% state taxes and even haven't been to their WA place in well over a year or more.

There are plenty of folks with 2nd homes in Wyoming who list them as their primary residence and do the same thing. I imagine mail can be a bit tricky, but I'm sure there are forwarding services (or property managers) that take care of it.

Or live in a state with no income tax but adjacent to a state with no sales tax (e.g. Vancouver, Washington).

[Flounder]

How many problems have been fixed with taxation?

I’ll start, how about interstate travel with a highway system. Or just watch this.

https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

[TAFKALVS]

^ That seems fair, You want to turn your home into a motel then pay the same taxes as the local inn.

Sounds great. Let's also add an additional property tax for unoccupied SFH as well unless it is a LTR which is occupied full time.

Shouldn't apply to condo units. Give the 2nd home folks something still.

Keep SFH as homes.

[Benny Profane]

How many problems have been fixed with taxation? Or do we explain it away with the constant "the taxes aren't high enough" excuse?

The treasury will never be big enough for those with their hands in it.

Hmmm, let's see. Education, roads, public transport, clean water treatment, air traffic control, airports, sanitation. Enough? I could go on.

[dunfree]

I’ll start, how about interstate travel with a highway system. Or just watch this.

https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Saving the world from fascism and communism works too

[goldenboy]

I think we definitely do need to consider that remote workers who live in different communities from their place of employment do not contribute to their community in the same way that they would if they were employed in the community most quantifiably in respect to resource competition and taxes (not) paid by the employers and in some cases by the remote worker. These remote workers derive great benefits from communities they live in while competing for resources with locally employed residents.

This was a small enough impact to ignore before COVID. Now it is not small in some communities. It is now hugely impactful to catastrophic in some communities, particularly areas like Tahoe, Summit County Co, etc. All of a sudden up to 1/3 of my avalanche students are remote workers who would have been local service industry employees who now can't find housing.

How do you address that to balance the missed taxes and increased burdens? I don't know.

I can think of someone (who occasionally posts here) who has been working remotely in CB for at least 10 years. He and his wife (who also works remote) serve on local non-profit Boards, go to trailwork days, etc and are basically highly involved within the community. I'd argue that they're a bigger part of this community than someone who bumps chairs for a season and then goes home. Somehow there is a balance between the 2, but I don't know what or how that comes about.

[dunfree]

10% unoccupied is a hilariously low bar for such a tax. You'd exceed that if you took 5 weeks vacation and a few weekend trips.

I said 10% occupied, not 10% unoccupied.

5 weeks vacation is not the real of ordinary workers.

[sirbumpsalot]

Hmmm, let's see. Education, roads, public transport, clean water treatment, air traffic control, airports, sanitation. Enough? I could go on.

I think there is a country full of people that might not agree with you about those 7 listed items being "fixed".

[dunfree]

I can think of someone (who occasionally posts here) who has been working remotely in CB for at least 10 years. He and his wife (who also works remote) serve on local non-profit Boards, go to trailwork days, etc and are basically highly involved within the community. I'd argue that they're a bigger part of this community than someone who bumps chairs for a season and then goes home. Somehow there is a balance between the 2, but I don't know what or how that comes about.

the key is they both produce the community the STR occupant wants to visit.

[BCMtnHound]

Given that (land) title was originally the means of being granted a seat at the governance table way back in the old empire, perhaps the notion that creating a more complicated process based on that notion of title to address social concerns, when the use of said title is no longer for the purposes it was intended, is just a bit farcical. Or do we still manage a society around slaves, serfs, commoners, and nobilty?
Part of the 'dream' I thought was to obtain a place to live that wasn't directly governed/controlled by another. Once those homes became a sought after object of investment beyond just basic security for the indivicual/family, that part of the dream seems to have turned into a nightmare. We aren't going to fix this problem with something as complicated (and easily circumventable for the haves) as more taxation. There is just too much energy in the system to control with little relief valves that we currently have in place (much like our climate problems - funny that).

Unfortunately, I do not know the answer. Most of the housing solutions attempted in recent memory have been rolled up in social systems that are considered unpalatable to our western culture (and mostly failures in those countries that have tried them anyways, for predicable reasons). But I am fortunate that I still have options to move further afield, although my ladies are definitely are at their amenities limit as it is. We will see.

[schuss]

How many problems have been fixed with taxation? Or do we explain it away with the constant "the taxes aren't high enough" excuse?

The treasury will never be big enough for those with their hands in it.

How do you think affordable housing gets built? I can tell you it definitely isn't through private project money, as margins are way higher on luxury stuff for the same space. Also, unoccupied tax is great as it forces some level of compliance vs. property hording and at least provides a meaningful cost to just holding property that's empty, as today there's very few continuous costs associated beyond real estate costs and minimal utilities.

[Name Redacted]

I'm confused. If you're using a rental property COMMERCIALLY... why would you think that it should be treated differently?

And like I said - warn folks and have a phase-in.

So do you want to raise taxes on long term rentals too? That should help rent prices and the housing crisis.

Where do you draw the line?

Tax the business, not the property.

And all of these costs will be passed on to the consumer. So remember, if you ever plan on traveling and staying anywhere, it is going to come out of your pockets. So you are advocating for a tax on yourself. The circle of life.

[sirbumpsalot]

I’ll start, how about interstate travel with a highway system. Or just watch this.

https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

There has been a 15yr fight over infrastructure bills to fix crumbling roads, falling bridges, and racist highways...and even with Build Back Better...it still wouldn't be fixed.