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  1. #7801
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    It pisses me off that people will pay that much for a junk house. But I guess they have no options?
    They're banking on that $589k house being worth north of a $1M in a decade or so.

  2. #7802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    What used to be "middle class" from the general understanding, which was a standard of living and not some objective number, now seems to require an income (in some locales) that many here want to call upper class.

    And the true upper class has pulled a brilliant move. It was always the middle class against the upper class, but the middle class used to be all the worker bees, and the upper class was like Kevo describes. But the true upper class, the wealth class, has managed to make some of you think people living a middle class lifestyle are now "upper class" because they make more money than you do (even if that money just enables them to live a middle class lifestyle in a high dollar place). And now they're the enemy, they're "the other". While the true upper class, the wealth class, is nowhere to be seen.
    Danno and I are very much in alignment with our thinking.

    The true upper class wants the lower class/working class to point fingers at the middle class and have them pay more taxes while the truly wealthy hide behind the curtain and get a tax reduction. That's exactly what happened with the Trump tax bill. It allowed the truly wealthy to coast along and kick the rungs off the ladder below them.

  3. #7803
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    house w mortgage cause its goid for taxes TGR Forums mobile app
    Always get a chuckle when I hear this

  4. #7804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    What used to be "middle class" from the general understanding, which was a standard of living and not some objective number, now seems to require an income (in some locales) that many here want to call upper class.

    So, as Lindahl pointed out (I think it was him), if you define middle class by the middle 50% (or some other objective number) we will always have a middle class, and it will always be the same size. But the dirty little secret is that the grouping you call middle class now has a much lower standard of living than it used to. 50 years ago, a factory worker somewhere in that middle 50% could own a modest/normal single family house, have some kids, own a car or two, and send those kids to college, all while preparing for a normal retirement. That was middle class. Now, the same factory worker could not come close to that standard. They might still be in the middle 50%, so some might still call them middle class, but they aren't close to the same standard of living.

    So, did the standard of living known as middle class trend downward? Such that someone who can own a modest/normal single family house, have some kids, own a car or two, and send those kids to college, all while preparing for a normal retirement, might now be "upper class"? For some of you, the answer is obviously yes, even if you didn't put this kind of thought into it. And the true upper class has pulled a brilliant move. It was always the middle class against the upper class, but the middle class used to be all the worker bees, and the upper class was like Kevo describes. But the true upper class, the wealth class, has managed to make some of you think people living a middle class lifestyle are now "upper class" because they make more money than you do (even if that money just enables them to live a middle class lifestyle in a high dollar place). And now they're the enemy, they're "the other". While the true upper class, the wealth class, is nowhere to be seen.
    Goal posts keep moving, because I’d argue those of you thinking the 50-80’s definition of middle class was anything like today are wildly off base. Middle class probably had one car, one vacation per year, mowed their own lawn, didn’t spend 15k a year on travel sports, no private school, streaming services or cable, no cell phone bills, no air travel and definitely no private school. Americans also spend more on prepared foods then groceries now. Middle class people never shopped for coach purses, dropped 1000 on a phone or $200 Nike’s either.
    They also painted their own house, changed their own oil and had a simple cake and kool aid for a kids party.
    If your feeling middle class at 250k you probably recognize some of thing I mentioned.
    Gym memberships, organic foods, don’t clip coupons. Xbox, Hulu and direct tv. I’d bet my Verizon bill is higher then my old mans mortgage payment was.
    Most high earners have been duped into “needing” crap.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #7805
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    There are alot of people w alot of disposable income its amazing sometimes I'd hate to be poor

    Sent from my SM-J737V using TGR Forums mobile app

  6. #7806
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    Poor and old sucks.

  7. #7807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    But that's past. I came from a machine shop owner father and Irish cops on my mother's side, so, I didn't starve, for sure. But I learned about recessions affecting manufacturing and war cycles at an early age. I lucked out and worked for 22 years for an old school corporation that gave me white collar benefits on an hourly wage basis. Awesome. I'm living off the pension and profit sharing, and I was a schmuck. That's gone. I know, you think I mean pensions are gone, but the whole fucking company is gone. Never thought I'd watch it, and so fast, on top of that. Largest publisher in the world. Poof.
    It's a fucking freight train to hell out there. I watched it all my career. I worked in operations that replaced thousands of high paying NYC typesetters and strippers, union tough, almost overnight in the eighties. Poof, gone. And it wasn't brainless stuff. Took years to master. Gone. Now magazines and newspapers are gone. Just, gone. Millions of people out of work. Nothing magic is there to replace that. Our supposedly smart kids are playing with trillions of play money, and all they come up with is fucking WeWork and Uber. A fucking taxi service. China owns us. It's our new Detroit.

    I did ok. I'm doing ok. But drive across America, leave your bubble. There's a ton of people hurting, and it's getting worse, not better. It's going to get a lot worse, because this new tax bill will drain money out of the middle class, and help the really wealthy to establish dynasties with the lack of inheritance taxes. In twenty years, it's going to be a freak show in trophy places around the world, and it's really bad now. That will not end well at all. But I'll be dead.
    If there's trillions in play money, no one coming up with good ideas, and people hurting, why don't you create something to help? You've got funding, apparently worldly experience, no competition other than Uber creators, and a labor force ready to work. Is that you don't have an answer other than telling TGR how well you understand things or you just don't care. I agree somewhat on the tax issues and wealth disparity, but man, you can be a bummer.

    And there are affordable houses, just not where people want to be. Kind of like how my house wasn't desirable when I bought it on a low just out of college salary.

    Back to the housing market crashing. We're starting to see it cool a little here. It's still fairly hot but there are some price reductions from original asking and houses sitting at least a couple weeks. A few months ago, it was cash over asking the day of listing.

  8. #7808
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Goal posts keep moving, because I’d argue those of you thinking the 50-80’s definition of middle class was anything like today are wildly off base. Middle class probably had one car, one vacation per year, mowed their own lawn, didn’t spend 15k a year on travel sports, no private school, streaming services or cable, no cell phone bills, no air travel and definitely no private school. Americans also spend more on prepared foods then groceries now. Middle class people never shopped for coach purses, dropped 1000 on a phone or $200 Nike’s either.
    They also painted their own house, changed their own oil and had a simple cake and kool aid for a kids party.
    If your feeling middle class at 250k you probably recognize some of thing I mentioned.
    Gym memberships, organic foods, don’t clip coupons. Xbox, Hulu and direct tv. I’d bet my Verizon bill is higher then my old mans mortgage payment was.
    Most high earners have been duped into “needing” crap.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    First, let me say I am not feeling middle class at 250k. Because I'd have to way more than double my income to get to 250k.

    Second, I do think that there is some truth to what you're saying, but some of that isn't necessarily related to standard of living, but just changes in the world. As in sure, during the 50s-80s there were no cell phone bills. But does that mean these 250k earners with their fancy cell phone bills are living high on the hog or the definition of middle class has changed? There was no internet bill, and likely no cable bill either. Because, you know, cable didn't exist except in very few locations and people watched TV OTA. Middle class family back then also probably meant a stay at home mom to handle many household tasks, whereas now it likely is a two earning family. Consumer goods didn't exist at the same level then, so sure, some people today are suckered into buying expensive shoes and handbags.

    Again, you've been duped by the wealthy class. You think that the fact that your cell phone bill is bigger than your old man's mortgage is somehow a sign of your wealth today. It's not. The fact that some people buy $200 Nikes is a sign of wealth today. It's not.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  9. #7809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    If there's trillions in play money, no one coming up with good ideas, and people hurting, why don't you create something to help? You've got funding, apparently worldly experience, no competition other than Uber creators, and a labor force ready to work. Is that you don't have an answer other than telling TGR how well you understand things or you just don't care. I agree somewhat on the tax issues and wealth disparity, but man, you can be a bummer.

    And there are affordable houses, just not where people want to be. Kind of like how my house wasn't desirable when I bought it on a low just out of college salary.

    Back to the housing market crashing. We're starting to see it cool a little here. It's still fairly hot but there are some price reductions from original asking and houses sitting at least a couple weeks. A few months ago, it was cash over asking the day of listing.
    I worked all my fucking life starting with delivering papers at 13. I'm not doing that. What the fuck. I'm lucky to be alive and standing.

    And, you know what's pathetic about Uber and Facebook, etc? The disdain and destruction of labor over capitol. It's obscene.

  10. #7810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    First, let me say I am not feeling middle class at 250k. Because I'd have to way more than double my income to get to 250k.

    Second, I do think that there is some truth to what you're saying, but some of that isn't necessarily related to standard of living, but just changes in the world. As in sure, during the 50s-80s there were no cell phone bills. But does that mean these 250k earners with their fancy cell phone bills are living high on the hog or the definition of middle class has changed? There was no internet bill, and likely no cable bill either. Because, you know, cable didn't exist except in very few locations and people watched TV OTA. Middle class family back then also probably meant a stay at home mom to handle many household tasks, whereas now it likely is a two earning family. Consumer goods didn't exist at the same level then, so sure, some people today are suckered into buying expensive shoes and handbags.

    Again, you've been duped by the wealthy class. You think that the fact that your cell phone bill is bigger than your old man's mortgage is somehow a sign of your wealth today. It's not. The fact that some people buy $200 Nikes is a sign of wealth today. It's not.
    Hence why I also used the term duped. Material items that people endlessly throw money at are why college savings and retirement are pie in the sky. The idea of having it all is so ingrained that many with high paying jobs have nothing left over of value. I for one am rich by all metrics because I judiciously save money and delay gratification. My kids played rec ball and I shoveled money in a 529.
    I never gave a crap what my neighbors had and probably never will. I still mow my own lawn. The only person in my neighborhood who does so. Hell I may the only person in my office who does it.
    My point is that rich people were always rich even for your parents day. Most middle class people didn’t know it and just did what they had to do. Saving and investing were ingrained, not borrowing was ingrained, rolling up your own sleeves and painting your own house on your off day is how you did it.
    YMMV but if you can’t get wealthy on 250k it’s your own damn fault regardless of where you live .


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #7811
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    YMMV but if you can’t get wealthy on 250k it’s your own damn fault regardless of where you live .
    I generally agree with this, though I am not sure I agree with the term "wealthy". And I agree that we have many systemic problems, consumerism being one. But I would also point out that some of that is driven by societal changes, not just someone who is irresponsibly dumb. For one, I suspect that most professional jobs now expect more working hours than they did 50 years ago. I also suspect that the means of getting ahead -- a good education -- are harder to obtain affordably these days, and it's also harder to manage household tasks when both parents are working FT jobs (and as already noted, those FT jobs are not punching a clock for 40 hours, but much longer hours). It's not all a simple failure of the individual, with you being the virtuous example that they should follow.

    So while I agree with your premise -- that someone making $250k should be able to salt away more than the graphic that started this whole discussion demonstrated -- I still don't think that makes that person "rich" or "wealthy" or "not middle class" in certain expensive areas of the country.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  12. #7812
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Hence why I also used the term duped. Material items that people endlessly throw money at are why college savings and retirement are pie in the sky. The idea of having it all is so ingrained that many with high paying jobs have nothing left over of value. I for one am rich by all metrics because I judiciously save money and delay gratification. My kids played rec ball and I shoveled money in a 529.
    I never gave a crap what my neighbors had and probably never will. I still mow my own lawn. The only person in my neighborhood who does so. Hell I may the only person in my office who does it.
    My point is that rich people were always rich even for your parents day. Most middle class people didn’t know it and just did what they had to do. Saving and investing were ingrained, not borrowing was ingrained, rolling up your own sleeves and painting your own house on your off day is how you did it.
    YMMV but if you can’t get wealthy on 250k it’s your own damn fault regardless of where you live .


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm going home right now to mow my grass.

  13. #7813
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    As a counterpoint, there are a lot of people delaying gratification to die at 55-70 from a heart attack.

  14. #7814
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    As a counterpoint, there are a lot of people delaying gratification to die at 55-70 from a heart attack.
    Or, you could just kill yourself after early gratification.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...alarming-rate/

  15. #7815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Or, you could just kill yourself after early gratification.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...alarming-rate/
    Not a bad idea. Enjoy life while you're young and healthy rather than waste those years working. Eat dessert first so to speak.

  16. #7816
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    Real Estate Crash thread

    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    As a counterpoint, there are a lot of people delaying gratification to die at 55-70 from a heart attack.
    That was my Dad. Gone too young at 66. Hard physical worker, moderate spender, last house paid down in 12 yrs (bought in good neighborhood to give us the most he could). Showed a great example to me.
    He had a joyful 6-8 yrs of retirement before he got sick with leukemia. At least my mom is left in a place where she’s not panicked but wish he could’ve enjoyed the retirement phase he set up much much longer. Or for him to have used the money in his 40s and 50s living his best life..

    So yeah, I bought a used Porsche after seeing all that. Living more for today. But have set up assurances for the future at the same time.

  17. #7817
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    Quote Originally Posted by CascadeLuke View Post
    That was my Dad. Gone too young at 66. Hard physical worker, moderate spender, last house paid down in 12 yrs (bought in good neighborhood to give us the most he could). Showed a great example to me.
    He had a joyful 6-8 yrs of retirement before he got sick with leukemia. At least my mom is left in a place where she’s not panicked but wish he could’ve enjoyed the retirement phase he set up much much longer. Or for him to have used the money in his 40s and 50s living his best life..

    So yeah, I bought a used Porsche after seeing all that. Living more for today. But have set up assurances for the future at the same time.
    Sorry about your dad. Mine was 51 when he passed suddenly. Also leukemia. Spent his last few years busting his ass to save for retirement. Fortunately set my mom up well with life insurance just in case. Living my life became much more important after he passed so young. Delayed gratification isn't a guarantee, but its good to balance planning for the future to an extent.

  18. #7818
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Goal posts keep moving, because I’d argue those of you thinking the 50-80’s definition of middle class was anything like today are wildly off base. Middle class probably had one car, one vacation per year, mowed their own lawn, didn’t spend 15k a year on travel sports, no private school, streaming services or cable, no cell phone bills, no air travel and definitely no private school. Americans also spend more on prepared foods then groceries now. Middle class people never shopped for coach purses, dropped 1000 on a phone or $200 Nike’s either.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    FWIW, everything you just described here resembles my mother’s borderline poor, 100% working class, Italian family when she was growing up in northern NJ in the 60s-70s. They were most definitely not financially comfortable considering the eldest 2 siblings more or less raised the other 3, as my grandparents were constantly working.

    Have you lived in NC your whole life? Honest question not meant to be demeaning. Our definitions of what defines middle class are just so far off that I’m puzzled.

  19. #7819
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    Sorry about your dad. Mine was 51 when he passed suddenly. Also leukemia. Spent his last few years busting his ass to save for retirement. Fortunately set my mom up well with life insurance just in case. Living my life became much more important after he passed so young. Delayed gratification isn't a guarantee, but its good to balance planning for the future to an extent.
    Thanks. Sorry about your dad as well. An even younger example.
    Being a grumpy old guy is not guaranteed.

  20. #7820
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Hence why I also used the term duped. Material items that people endlessly throw money at are why college savings and retirement are pie in the sky. The idea of having it all is so ingrained that many with high paying jobs have nothing left over of value. I for one am rich by all metrics because I judiciously save money and delay gratification. My kids played rec ball and I shoveled money in a 529.
    I never gave a crap what my neighbors had and probably never will. I still mow my own lawn. The only person in my neighborhood who does so. Hell I may the only person in my office who does it.
    My point is that rich people were always rich even for your parents day. Most middle class people didn’t know it and just did what they had to do. Saving and investing were ingrained, not borrowing was ingrained, rolling up your own sleeves and painting your own house on your off day is how you did it.
    YMMV but if you can’t get wealthy on 250k it’s your own damn fault regardless of where you live .


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I agree 100% with all this.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  21. #7821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Luckily the Pew Research Center has a calculator to determine is you are middle class. It accounts for where you live.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
    I’m Upper class bitches! Wife is dragging my percentage down though. Get a real job woman!

    Apparently my peers are too.

    Among all American adults with your education, age, race or ethnicity, and marital status, 6% are LOWER income, 54% are MIDDLE income and 40% are UPPER income.

  22. #7822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Sorry dude, but, that's the way things are. All of the Supreme Court went to just two law schools. Goldman Sachs does not hire from Ohio State, let alone some small private school. The media is a close knit circle of mostly Ivy Leaguers.
    Even if some average kid is lucky enough to get into Harvard, besides, you know, half of that class which is legacy, they will be saddled with crippling debt that will drag them down almost to their graves. They won't be able to innovate at take chances or afford to bring up their kids in a good school system Hell, they probably won't have kids. It's really fucked up, and getting worse. It's a mighty force around here. I look into the eyes of some of these mommys, and they are scary ruthless in their determination to position little Bobby and Mary on the right launchpad, no matter what. It's a fucking full time gig, and really expensive.
    Harvard is FREE unless you are a legacy!!! My middle class cousin went for like 10k a year.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  23. #7823
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    Real Estate Crash thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    But first, you are arguing that paying 750-1.25 million is just a family trying to live the middle class lifestyle, without acknowledging that at the end of the day, when they go and sell that home, they are millionaires and have, literally, 5x the average wealth of the typical American at retirement. I would argue that is not middle class. That is an investment made that has value, both monetarily and in their lifestyle as well....
    I didn’t say anything about owning the home. Rent in these areas are aligned with the mortgages. The down payments are astronomically higher too. Most middle class in these locations won’t be own their home.

    The ones that do won’t have it paid off by retirement age, and probably will have much less retirement savings. They’ll have to sell and move to same locations that other middle class people will end up.

    Also, you can’t count on house appreciation either. When they are forced to sell at retirement age, prices might be lower. The mega appreciation we’ve seen in the last decade or two is not sustainable and is related to dropping mortgage rates and higher debt. We might see steady prices or even declines for decades as a result. Look at how debt to income ratios have changed. Good luck seeing that climb much higher.

    Finally, I’m not sure how anyone could call it a luxury - living in CA/WA/NJ suburbs, commuting an extra 15-30 minutes than the Iowa couple. We’re definitely not talking about people near the beach or any other neat location. Those prices are much much higher in these locations.

    Boulder I consider to be a different case - 250k there is not what I’d consider solidly middle class. At least not today. Living in Boulder is a luxury the middle class would have to make sacrifices for. Middle class that lives comfortably would be living in the outer burbs, just like the comfortable middle class that works in NYC/Seattle/SanFran does in NJ/WA/CA.

    FWIW, I don’t consider myself middle class, but also our household would make a lot more if we lived near SanFran or Seattle or NYC than we did in Denver (Zurich is not really comparable to the US situation). I’m very grateful for what my opportunities and hard work have given me.
    Last edited by Lindahl; 10-16-2019 at 10:46 PM.

  24. #7824
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    I’m Upper class bitches! Wife is dragging my percentage down though. Get a real job woman!

    Apparently my peers are too.

    Among all American adults with your education, age, race or ethnicity, and marital status, 6% are LOWER income, 54% are MIDDLE income and 40% are UPPER income.
    But somehow you still managed to marry up !

  25. #7825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

    FWIW, I don’t consider myself middle class,
    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    I’m Upper class bitches! .
    Click image for larger version. 

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    maggot discount code TGR20
    ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....

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