Real Estate Crash thread

[neufox47]

Friends trying to build near A Basin have been trying to get approval for 28 months. They plan on building an over under duplex, both 2x2 and rent one unit as a LTR. Using one of the local established home builders and a cookie cutter plan.

Plans required two changes that were rejected separately. The plans showed a driveway that was 1’ too wide for the easement and a 4’ retaining wall didn’t show enough detail in the drawing.


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[goldenboy]

I can't believe you think I live in Summit! I'm not cool enough for that place. I living in Tabernash. Between SFHs and Condo, I bet in the 1,000 a year right now. I really think it is cheap for the developers relative to the alternative. There are sites in Fraser for example that are really to go for 100 units. No SIA, no roads, utilities in the street etc. Just write checks and call the excavator.

Shit, I knew that. Sorry!

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[skifishbum]

I can't believe you think I live in Summit! I'm not cool enough for that place. I living in Tabernash. Between SFHs and Condo, I bet in the 1,000 a year right now. I really think it is cheap for the developers relative to the alternative. There are sites in Fraser for example that are really to go for 100 units. No SIA, no roads, utilities in the street etc. Just write checks and call the excavator.

and hope the killdozer dont show up

[Foggy_Goggles]

Plans required two changes that were rejected separately. The plans showed a driveway that was 1’ too wide for the easement and a 4’ retaining wall didn’t show enough detail in the drawing.

That shit would drive me crazy. I'll all about plan review and codes but it seems so arbitrary. The driveway one is really on either the architect or the surveyor. The retaining wall is kind of a it depends on whether its related to the engineering of the foundation or mode of a grade issue.

I really think this is one of the reasons Grand County is blowing up. Compared to Summit and Eagle, its so fuckin' cowboy on the rules and regs side.

[schuss]

Friends trying to build near A Basin have been trying to get approval for 28 months. They plan on building an over under duplex, both 2x2 and rent one unit as a LTR. Using one of the local established home builders and a cookie cutter plan.

Plans required two changes that were rejected separately. The plans showed a driveway that was 1’ too wide for the easement and a 4’ retaining wall didn’t show enough detail in the drawing.


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How is that taking 28 months? That feels like an easy zoning variance request or quick plan change.

[Name Redacted]

I really think this is one of the reasons Grand County is blowing up. Compared to Summit and Eagle, its so fuckin' cowboy on the rules and regs side.

That and the fact that over there isn't nearly as close to full buildout as Summit.

[neufox47]

How is that taking 28 months? That feels like an easy zoning variance request or quick plan change.

That time is start to present so it isn’t all on the then. Covid also delayed it but the short of it is that (from their perspective at least) the building department is just intentionally dragging their feet. The driveway delay alone took up 6 months. The plans had to be completely redone and submitted then they will only approve them at a monthly meeting but then COVID stopped a bunch of meetings, etc etc.

[glademaster]

That time is start to present so it isn’t all on the then. Covid also delayed it but the short of it is that (from their perspective at least) the building department is just intentionally dragging their feet. The driveway delay alone took up 6 months. The plans had to be completely redone and submitted then they will only approve them at a monthly meeting but then COVID stopped a bunch of meetings, etc etc.

It's unlikely the Building Department is holding things up because of the driveway width. That's almost certainly P&Z or Engineering, without an outside possibility that the local Fire Department caught it. Your friends are frustrated with the entire Community Development staff, not just the building department.

Although I would bet a beer at Outer Range that at least 1/3 of that 28 month timeline (and probably closer to 1/2) was taken up by the design team revising and resubmitting drawings that the county could actually approve. In many places when you resubmit to address deficiencies in the original application, you start over at the bottom of the queue for review too, it isn't like you submit your new documents and your project magically becomes priority #1.

As someone who reviews building plans for a living, IDGAF how wide your driveway is, but those guys in Planning and Engineering seem to think the fate of the world hangs on it.

[schuss]

That time is start to present so it isn’t all on the then. Covid also delayed it but the short of it is that (from their perspective at least) the building department is just intentionally dragging their feet. The driveway delay alone took up 6 months. The plans had to be completely redone and submitted then they will only approve them at a monthly meeting but then COVID stopped a bunch of meetings, etc etc.

Most areas had decrees that allowed meeting during COVID remotely. I know in NH we recently had to go back to in-person as the things expired. I also don't know of any department that would take 6 months for something, I'm betting they dragged their feet on the driveway redraw, then missed the window to get in the meeting so they had to wait another month (as most must be publicly noticed at least a few weeks prior). It could be a shitty building/planning/zoning board, but in that case, they should run and try to get it on a more reasonable cadence.
Most delays I've seen are because people don't want to pay for proper drawings and don't have their shit together.

[Foggy_Goggles]

That and the fact that over there isn't nearly as close to full buildout as Summit.

No kidding, I don't think anyone even has a clue as to what buildout looks like. I do know that the up valley water and san districts have a ton of capacity and that there are platted subdivisions ready to go everywhere.

Our limited factor should be roads but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. That said, we only have one ski area and ya'll have four. By the time you can't drive there, I'm not sure I want to go.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Your friends are frustrated with the entire Community Development staff, not just the building department.

You can stick that in your ass. I understand that it is not your job directly but it is the responsibility of "The company you work for". The whole "not by problem" attitude is what gets people fired up. That like the government equivalent for the blind transfer to the other department on the end of the 800 number.

That said, homeowner generals and those that want to manage their own construction project are the worst. Frequently it's, "I don't know what I'm doing and I don't feel like the whole industry in holding my hand enough to help me out". Yeah...no shit. Nobody works for free.

Let's say it's a deck rebuilt. I've somebody a price inclusive of all the pre-construction. Architecture, engineering, HOA, locates, bid management, material selection and orders, subcontractor coordination etc. etc. People balk at the price and I'll them, "totally cool, I don't really enjoy that part of my job anyway. Give me call when you've got a building permits and expected dates for excavation, concrete and material delivery".

Yeah, those jobs never get done.

[glademaster]

You can stick that in your ass. I understand that it is not your job directly but it is the responsibility of "The company you work for". The whole "not by problem" attitude is what gets people fired up. That like the government equivalent for the blind transfer to the other department on the end of the 800 number.

I'm not attempting to shirk any responsibility, just trying to shed light on the number of different agencies that review a permit application for a new house. It's a fact that the actual Building review is often the least onerous/time consuming, as long as your architect and structural engineer are on the same page. A permit app for a new house will be reviewed by Planning, Zoning, Engineering, and often Environmental Health. There are a whole lot of people who can add a lot of time to the process above and beyond the Building review with new construction.

[Foggy_Goggles]

That's true. What is county engineering, we don't have that? I just say give me a set of stamped plans and a permit.

It's amazing how many people that want to build a house don't understand what a site plan is. Once the foundation walls are poured, they are all about the same. Its all the shit that comes before that which is difficult. Improvement Location Certificate what?

I'd really like to know what is going with the design review for the driveway. It's really simply stuff if you know what you are doing. If it's a local architect doing the site plan, that should be a slam dunk. If it is the homeowner, I'd guess that is a bit of arrogance involved and some "I didn't know I couldn't do whatever I want".

[Mokomahonah]

Engineering in my area looks at the driveway and any grading/ site retaining walls, especially anything near the public ROW. Then we also have public works, which are also engineers. They also look at the driveway, and anything near the ROW.

In my experience as a building inspector, Glade is right. It often flys through building plan check, or there is some communication with the submitting party. Then it goes back into "the queue".

Having also submitted as the design/engineering team. The counties can be a bit of a black box. Things get lost all the time. It is frustrating.

OTOH people are terrible to the community development staff. It's all "the building department" to them, so those guys are public enemy #1. Rugged individualism does not mix well with building permits.

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[Toadman]

That time is start to present so it isn’t all on the then. Covid also delayed it but the short of it is that (from their perspective at least) the building department is just intentionally dragging their feet. The driveway delay alone took up 6 months. The plans had to be completely redone and submitted then they will only approve them at a monthly meeting but then COVID stopped a bunch of meetings, etc etc.

That sucks on the delays. We had no issues with our retaining walls or the driveway. Just everything else was delayed. You know, things like excavation, foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, siding, painting, roofing, etc.

[Mazderati]

Looking like a sweet pad, toad.

[liv2ski]

Yup. Very swangy.

[skaredshtles]

That sucks on the delays. We had no issues with our retaining walls or the driveway. Just everything else was delayed. You know, things like excavation, foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, siding, painting, roofing, etc.

[m2711c]

So, what did that wall cost breakdown to per rock?

[Toadman]

The views don't suck either. Can see Jefferson, 3 Finger Jack and North Sisters.

This is from July when they finally got around to building. My advise is not to build during a pandemic.

[Toadman]

So, what did that wall cost breakdown to per rock?

The rocks were free. They came with the lot. However, to excavate them and put them in nice pretty rows was about $45k. Bend is basically one big lava flow underneath all that rock. Sometimes you get lucky and don't hit much. We were fairly lucky and only hit a big chunk of rock in the SE corner by the garage. That big SOB of a boulder with the sign in front came out in the middle of the lot. Our excavator rolled it down the hill. Luckily momentum didn't take it across the street and into our neighbors house.

[californiagrown]

That sucks on the delays. We had no issues with our retaining walls or the driveway. Just everything else was delayed. You know, things like excavation, foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, siding, painting, roofing, etc.

the walls didnt cause issues on yours because those are less than 4' tall, meaning they dont have to be engineered and no one cares about them. As for driveways, there are all sorts of SF and dimensional limits ranging from stormwater, to fire, to bldg dept requirements.

If an engineer puts 4' (on the dot) walls on your plan, fire his/her ass. steepen the grade above/below the wall a bit to get it under 4' and youre golden. Or, if there is room, tier the wall. no inspector is out there with a tape measure checking that its 3.95' instead of 4.01'.

Nuefox's situation sounds like either incompetence from the civil, or an owner demanding changes for a design and not understanding the requirements that triggers. Plus, its not exactly the best and brightest that go to work at municipalities- its usually the castoffs or burnouts from the private sector so you really cant expect much. Keep the expectations low.

[Toadman]

the walls didnt cause issues on yours because those are less than 4' tall, meaning they dont have to be engineered and no one cares about them. As for driveways, there are all sorts of SF and dimensional limits ranging from stormwater, to fire, to bldg dept requirements.

If an engineer puts 4' (on the dot) walls on your plan, fire his/her ass. steepen the grade above/below the wall a bit to get it under 4' and youre golden. Or, if there is room, tier the wall. no inspector is out there with a tape measure checking that its 3.95' instead of 4.01'.

Nuefox's situation sounds like either incompetence from the civil, or an owner demanding changes for a design and not understanding the requirements that triggers. Plus, its not exactly the best and brightest that go to work at municipalities- its usually the castoffs or burnouts from the private sector so you really cant expect much. Keep the expectations low.

We have some 6' walls in the back. But the rear wall was basically dug out of lava rock, so no concerns about structural integrity. We had just two minor changes that were requested on our build. Easily handled with our architect who has experience building over 20 homes in our area. We have heard of some other horror stories of people's permits get jammed up during lengthy review process. Our neighbors across the street had all sort of problems and design changes that were requested. Took them 8 extra months for their build to be completed. Varied from the HOA dragging their feet on how the drive was laid out, to how many trees they wanted to take down.

[wolfelot]

How is building in Park County Colorado in terms of dealing with the county building department overall? Do any of you guys have experience dealing with them?

We are building in Valley of the Sun between Alma and Fairplay. We have driveway and septic plans in hand for the spring, but those came from the health department. Well permit from the state.

I’ve been having a tough time getting truss companies to talk with me so we can get our house plans stamped and submitted. The building department has been decent in answering questions but we have not REALLY started working with them. We are planning for a wild ride with everything going on in construction coupled with building at 11,000 feet.

[skiballs]

^pretty area out there.


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