Real Estate Crash thread

[altasnob]

I mean you are sitting in a jail that does treatment. (And not the version we have now.)

Washington has Drug Offender Sentencing Alternative (DOSA) with a version you do 100% in prison and version you go to prison and then do an in-patient stint after prison. We have drug courts too. But think about it. Treatment, at its core, is teaching people how do deal with every day stressors. Works much better when you are not sitting in jail and are out in the community so you can learn to cope with what triggers you.

50% of homeless are normal people just priced out of homes and could become normal again if they get a home. 50% are warehouse material. So I agree that it cannot be a 100% free market solution. But lets focus on that first 50% before we worry about those who can't be fixed.

[old_newguy]

Washington has Drug Offender Sentencing Alternative (DOSA) with a version you do 100% in prison and version you go to prison and then do an in-patient stint after prison. We have drug courts too. But think about it. Treatment, at its core, is teaching people how do deal with every day stressors. Works much better when you are not sitting in jail and are out in the community so you can learn to cope with what triggers you.

50% of homeless are normal people just priced out of homes and could become normal again if they get a home. 50% are warehouse material. So I agree that it cannot be a 100% free market solution. But lets focus on that first 50% before we worry about those who can't be fixed.

I agree that the first cohort needs to be placed in housing ASAP and even better kept off the streets in the first place.

The problem with not addressing the second cohort is that they are causing livability problems in a big way and they are public facing, so are not helping the public perception that their tax dollars (which in some municipalities are a big chunk of change of additional taxes earmarked for this issue) are being used wisely.

On the drug treatment program, the solution is obvious. Involuntary treatment followed by supervised release, halfway houses, probation, etc.

I don’t even actually care if people do drugs. I just don’t want shitty behavior. So, go shoot heroin and do PCP all you want, but when you show up on the street or in the park with your bullshit their needs to be consequences that actually move the needle.

I totally understand that funding this is a huge problem.

[Buster Highmen]

It's more like 65% of homeless have drug or alcohol addictions:
https://www.nationalhomeless.org/fac.../addiction.pdf .

I won't pull fake statistics out of my ass, but I'd guess that this 65% are most of the people making a mess out of public spaces.

[TBS]

@old-newguy - what consequences for drug possession would those be? A very large portion of homeless drug addicts are mentally ill and self medicating. Arrest them, they go thru treatment, get out and the cycle restarts. And the taxpayers are not willing to pay what it takes to deal with these mentally ill.

If they don’t have their own abode and can’t be in public areas, where should they go to exist?

Where should they dump their trash if there’s no garbage containers or disposal?

Where do they take a shit? You I’m sure are well aware of the controversy about public loos in PDX.

[altasnob]

I am not naive enough to think the West coast elite cities can solve their homeless problem. I just want them to get back to Detroit levels so Benny can't keep rubbing it in our faces.

[dunfree]

Involuntary treatment? Nothing makes fascists like property prices.

[toastybroski]

I recently heard about someone doing something like this, moving from Sedona to Asheville without ever even visiting there, and, I was like, wtf? People do this? Hey, I can see some place for a job, but, for anything else?

I moved and accepted a job from Colorado to Montana without ever visiting. It's been great.

[liv2ski]

Or just move to Breck.

Or my hood. The cops move the few that show up out of town and back to San Diego. Not sure how they get away with that. Maybe if you were never a resident they can give you the boot?

[Buster Highmen]

One of the starkest differences I've ever seen was between Naples and Ft Myers about 20 miles apart.
Naples had no homeless.
Ft. Myers was strewn with shopping carts and people sleeping in the medians.

[liv2ski]

My heart goes out to the homeless BUT they have to work with society or find their own place outside of it. Like Papillon being sent to Devils Island, in CA we have the Channel Islands. Ship them off there to have their own little slice of the Lord of the Flies. Once they have had enough of tent living and each others barbarism, they can come back if they are willing to accept help. I mean, what we are doing now is BS.

[old_newguy]

@old-newguy - what consequences for drug possession would those be? A very large portion of homeless drug addicts are mentally ill and self medicating. Arrest them, they go thru treatment, get out and the cycle restarts. And the taxpayers are not willing to pay what it takes to deal with these mentally ill.

If they don’t have their own abode and can’t be in public areas, where should they go to exist?

Where should they dump their trash if there’s no garbage containers or disposal?

Where do they take a shit? You I’m sure are well aware of the controversy about public loos in PDX.

Basically I am in favor of geographically distributed camps or shelters where people can camp, bathe, dispose of trash, etc.

I am explicitly not saying that we exclude these people from public places. I AM saying that certain behaviors (public urination, theft, disposing of needles carelessly, aggressive behavior, assault, etc) are not acceptable.

I’m not really much of a fan of camping in the ROW generally and would prefer camps, shelters, micro housing or housing.

Like I said. I don’t actually care if they do drugs.
I just don’t want the behavior in public.


There needs to be garbage receptacles available. Bear box style seems appropriate to keep people out of it.

There needs to be public toilets. This will require security.

[dan_pdx]

So tell me again why the east is dead and the west is the future?

I haven't been there in ages, but, I'm pretty sure Detroit doesnt have tent cities.

https://medium.com/illumination/port...e-8039cfc58688

Meh, I have no idea where the guy who wrote that article lives, but he seems to be missing some on-the-ground info. He referenced Sandy Elementary - no such thing. He thinks Wheeler got re-elected because he pledged to be soft on the homeless...he actually got re-elected because his main opponent, Sarah Iannarone, has never held elected office and is a dipshit. She made campaign appearances in a skirt with portraits of Mao on it, for example. And as far as decriminalizing hard drugs, no doubt there were some Pollyannas here who thought that would work out somehow, but that shitty initiative also got some significant support from out of state - case in point: https://thefreshtoast.com/news/mark-...ugs-in-oregon/

So yeah, I hate to say it, but is that guy really a local?

[PowderHorse]

For all you TGR Equestrian mags...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/insi...180000663.html

That's actually a really good deal. Amazing facilities for the horses and water rights from the Willamette but seriously expensive to staff and maintain a place that holds 90+ equine.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Benny Profane]

She made campaign appearances in a skirt with portraits of Mao on it

Perfect.

[Vt-Freeheel]

One of the starkest differences I've ever seen was between Naples and Ft Myers about 20 miles apart.
Naples had no homeless.
Ft. Myers was strewn with shopping carts and people sleeping in the medians.

I lived in Naples Jan-July '93, Naples was so white it felt like I was in Gulfside Vermont. We drove to hang in Ft Meyers over the Skybridge because the beach was fun to party at.
Biggest employer in Collier county? The Sheriffs department.

[TBS]

Meh, I have no idea where the guy who wrote that article lives, but he seems to be missing some on-the-ground info. He referenced Sandy Elementary - no such thing. He thinks Wheeler got re-elected because he pledged to be soft on the homeless...he actually got re-elected because his main opponent, Sarah Iannarone, has never held elected office and is a dipshit. She made campaign appearances in a skirt with portraits of Mao on it, for example. And as far as decriminalizing hard drugs, no doubt there were some Pollyannas here who thought that would work out somehow, but that shitty initiative also got some significant support from out of state - case in point: https://thefreshtoast.com/news/mark-...ugs-in-oregon/

So yeah, I hate to say it, but is that guy really a local?

A really quick Googlz search sez that author is from PDX & writes fiction - particularly horror.

And yea, there’s a lot of bullshit in that piece. Particularly the part about state of OR’s voters deciding (overwhelmingly) to decriminalize all illegal drugs resulting in homeless addicts flocking to PDX from across the nation.

[jono]

And I don't expect homeless to be able to move into those shiny new micro apartments. But those shiny new micro apartments are going to make that run down beater apartment building less desirable, so hopefully bring the price of that down enough to make it affordable.

I don't follow this thread completely so apologies if it's been covered, but I hear Renton has been an interesting case lately with Section 8 and the Red Lion as a temporary homeless shelter. I'm curious how you see that fitting in re: homeless moving between Seattle and surrounding areas.

[dunfree]

A really quick Googlz search sez that author is from PDX & writes fiction - particularly horror.

And yea, there’s a lot of bullshit in that piece. Particularly the part about state of OR’s voters deciding (overwhelmingly) to decriminalize all illegal drugs resulting in homeless addicts flocking to PDX from across the nation.

a quick look at the other medium pieces he’s written says he churns out shit that will get clicks for cash

Resting your head somewhere don’t mean shit.

[Toadman]

Maine & VT are pretty damn white. So is Cape Code. Not sure where Upstate NY is, but I'm guessing it starts where the demo goes mostly white, but if there was a thread, I'm sure it would be resolved in just one page worth of posts.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021...ethnicity-map/

[Greenstateofmind]

^^^Great Map
1. The south is segregated to this day.
2. Give Texas back to Mexico
3. If we could just convince people to build in the dakotas.

[californiagrown]

I don't follow this thread completely so apologies if it's been covered, but I hear Renton has been an interesting case lately with Section 8 and the Red Lion as a temporary homeless shelter. I'm curious how you see that fitting in re: homeless moving between Seattle and surrounding areas.

A couple years ago now, we went in for a PreApp meeting on a large affordable housing project (300+ units) in a larger south-sound city. The meeting went well, with no big hurdles to overcome and all potential issues having feasible solutions the developer was fine with addressing. As we were leaving, the city manager pulled us (the project applicant team) aside to have an offline conversation. He said, and i quote cause it was fairly shocking to us all, "The City has no appetite for any affordable housing projects, and we will do anything we can to kill this project. So be aware of that if you choose to move forward with the project". Halfway through permitting the project the developer killed the project due to a combination of challenging site design issues and the City being exceptionally difficult to work with.

IME city's dislike affordable housing. Reason ive been told is it brings in problem people, and it costs the jurisdiction much more in services (schools, public transport, police/medical, etc) than is funded by the additional tax base.

[jono]

A couple years ago now, we went in for a PreApp meeting on a large affordable housing project (300+ units) in a larger south-sound city. The meeting went well, with no big hurdles to overcome and all potential issues having feasible solutions the developer was fine with addressing. As we were leaving, the city manager pulled us (the project applicant team) aside to have an offline conversation. He said, and i quote cause it was fairly shocking to us all, "The City has no appetite for any affordable housing projects, and we will do anything we can to kill this project. So be aware of that if you choose to move forward with the project". Halfway through permitting the project the developer killed the project due to a combination of challenging site design issues and the City being exceptionally difficult to work with.

IME city's dislike affordable housing. Reason ive been told is it brings in problem people, and it costs the jurisdiction much more in services (schools, public transport, police/medical, etc) than is funded by the additional tax base.

Why let in the unwashed at all, right?

One of the things I ran across regarding the Red Lion was Renton complaining about that vicinity getting a larger fraction of their police calls--even while their total police calls plummeted over the same time period. Maybe the one didn't cause the other, but that seems like a win--even moreso considering where that eyesore sits. But, sure, a bigger win is pushing a few percent of their police calls to Seattle. Renton deserves that.

[Toadman]

^^^Great Map
1. The south is segregated to this day.
2. Give Texas back to Mexico
3. If we could just convince people to build in the dakotas.

Climate change might either convince people or force people. Depends on water supply in the Dakotas

[californiagrown]

Why let in the unwashed at all, right?

One of the things I ran across regarding the Red Lion was Renton complaining about that vicinity getting a larger fraction of their police calls--even while their total police calls plummeted over the same time period. Maybe the one didn't cause the other, but that seems like a win--even moreso considering where that eyesore sits. But, sure, a bigger win is pushing a few percent of their police calls to Seattle. Renton deserves that.

Its not so much worrying about the "unwashed and undesirables", though the police services thing is most certainly a large factor. Its finding the funding to hire more teachers, more school bus drivers etc to handle the extra kids who's parents cannot contribute taxes to pay for it. Affordable housing tends to attract multigenerational households with kids, usually immigrant families- meaning that g-ma and g-pa will rely on public tranportation and free medical services along with the kids. In fact, i think it was the school district that was the loudest naysayer in regards to this specific project. Additonally, lower income folks arent going to spend as much money in the local community as the 30yr old yuppies who can afford non-subsidized rent, so their is opportunity cost along with actual realized cost associated with affordable housing.

Gotta remember that it starts getting red really quickly when you leave the immediate Seattle/Tacoma metro area.

[wooley12]

All true. Keep those dirty unwashed breeders away from good tax paying citizens.