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  1. #8076
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    Mine is a peach. Haven't seen or heard of him in 6 months. I take care of things that could degrade his investment but I'll admit I'd be doing more if I owned it.n My rental house is in paradise. I'd have bought it if I'd moved west a year earlier. Now it's out of my price range. My daughter has rented 5 times and 2 moves were to get away from the money hungry owners who put no value on preventive maintenance and once because the owner was collecting rent and not paying the bank and she came home to a bank eviction notice on the door. I hope someday someone will key one of the two Beemers in the driveway of his house on the golf course in Gig Harbor. I do have strange fantasies.

    But I digress.

    What I'm hearing is that the appreciation generally is greater than the probability of $$$ repairs from minor neglect. What made me think of the whole idea was talking with a fellow who had 3 rental houses and was in the middle of a $30,000 repair from a leaky tub drain.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  2. #8077
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    I would argue the opposite, notably due to it being a relatively safe and easy opportunity for the layperson to utilize leverage.

    Sure you could put 300k into an index fund and it would probably appreciate per year at a higher rate than the property you could buy for 300k. But that assumes you won't get basically any rent receipts.

    But the average landlord is only putting down 30k and financing the rest, or is doing an owner occupy three unit, or something along those lines. The average land lord doesn't just have 300k sitting around gathering dust.

    The math argues in favor of the rental. You need a guaranteed 8% return for the 30 grand in an index fund to be a better payout than the rental with 0 percent appreciation and a breakeven revenue. If that rental appreciates even at 1%, you need that index fund to put out almost 9%. If that rental throws off 100 a month after expenses the index fund needs to put out almost 10+. Good luck hitting those numbers even in the most basic and reliable of ETF's over a 30 year timeframe, and even then you are dependent on really nailing the timing that you buy and sell.

    The math is better for buying a rental in almost every scenario, even buying straight cash. The work element is vastly overrated here, even cash invested outside of real estate requires some due diligence and research and time spent by the investor.
    Live Free or Die

  3. #8078
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    Agree. It's one of the few ways someone with little-to-no education, and no financial knowledge, but a little money and decent credit can generate fairly low risk non-employment income.

  4. #8079
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    I do handyman bull shit for long and short term rentals. Plenty to say on the subject. Unless I'm asked or there is something really fucked I really dont care or narc on anyone

    Was rebuilding a deck on a house couple years ago for a really good customer of mine we noticed weed plant stocks sticking out of the ground in the backyard where are the plants so we asked the kids if they were growing weed it took a few times before they admitted growing weed we asked where were the plants they said they cut them out cause they didn't want to get in trouble cause they thought we'd tell the landlord we laughed at them poor kids would never think of it they felt pretty dumb

    Sent from my SM-J737V using TGR Forums mobile app

  5. #8080
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I would argue the opposite, notably due to it being a relatively safe and easy opportunity for the layperson to utilize leverage.

    Sure you could put 300k into an index fund and it would probably appreciate per year at a higher rate than the property you could buy for 300k. But that assumes you won't get basically any rent receipts.

    But the average landlord is only putting down 30k and financing the rest, or is doing an owner occupy three unit, or something along those lines. The average land lord doesn't just have 300k sitting around gathering dust.

    The math argues in favor of the rental. You need a guaranteed 8% return for the 30 grand in an index fund to be a better payout than the rental with 0 percent appreciation and a breakeven revenue. If that rental appreciates even at 1%, you need that index fund to put out almost 9%. If that rental throws off 100 a month after expenses the index fund needs to put out almost 10+. Good luck hitting those numbers even in the most basic and reliable of ETF's over a 30 year timeframe, and even then you are dependent on really nailing the timing that you buy and sell.

    The math is better for buying a rental in almost every scenario, even buying straight cash. The work element is vastly overrated here, even cash invested outside of real estate requires some due diligence and research and time spent by the investor.
    Index funds don't cook crank in the basement or call you up at 2am because of issues.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  6. #8081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Index funds don't cook crank in the basement or call you up at 2am because of issues.
    Yeah, because cooking meth in the basement is pretty much a guarantee with any renter. Also, ask anyone like you who thought a solid blue chipper like Kodak was a better investment than a rental 30 years ago how they ended up.

    PS, the 2am wake up call is very rare. You own your condo, how many catastrophes have you dealt with in the middle of the night? I bet its once a year at worst, and probably more like once every 5-10. Just because someone is renting doesn't mean the pipes are going to generate more leaks. The reality is you have to paint the place more often and replace appliances a year or two earlier than owner occupied.

    The biggest risk is non-payment, so unlike just parking cash elsewhere I do see the biggest downside to owning a rental is the needed cash reserves the landlord has to carry. Basically 3 months carrying costs. If you had the nut to buy the rental in the first place though that number shouldn't be hard to attain.
    Live Free or Die

  7. #8082
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    Good point.

    Good thing or Bad thing? For the hard working citizen I mean. Not Capitalists.

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    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  8. #8083
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    Do you think those assumptions don't carry over to other investments? I touched on it earlier but companies go bankrupt, lose market share, impacted cash flow, and are subject to market volatility also. In fact, I think those risks are much higher outside of real estate vs buying real estate.

    No investment is perfect, but for the average Joe, real estate is still the sweet spot in terms of risk/reward for anyone with limited capital.
    Live Free or Die

  9. #8084
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    This conversation is kinda moot anyways as no landlord is going to blow his profit on paying Wooley to fuck around for a couple hours every two weeks.
    I’m thinking you don’t have to pay Woolley
    He said the tenants are going to ask him to stay for drinks and dinner
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  10. #8085
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Do you think those assumptions don't carry over to other investments? I touched on it earlier but companies go bankrupt, lose market share, impacted cash flow, and are subject to market volatility also. In fact, I think those risks are much higher outside of real estate vs buying real estate.

    No investment is perfect, but for the average Joe, real estate is still the sweet spot in terms of risk/reward for anyone with limited capital.
    For the record Fidelity would be happy to lend my 300k to trade with if I gave them 30k. However, trading on margin is not my game. Leverage in real estate is not different except I can hit the sell button in minutes and not pay 6% commission and be caught in an illiquid asset like real estate. I would contend the average Joe is better off living below their means, investing for 30-40 years in a low cost index fund and then spending their gains in old age. At normal rates of inflation, single family in most desirable areas seem to have too many carrying costs such as property tax, HOA dues and maintenance. no thanks.

  11. #8086
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    I have known more people gain wealth from real estate than stocks, as real estate is a leveraged investment, which very few normal Joe's will try to do with stocks. I have suggested to my kids that you need at least your own place paid off before retirement. If you don't want to do rentals then invest in a low load S&P 500 fund and when the market tanks put as much as you can into it and hope history repeats itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  12. #8087
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    Commercial ain’t all bad. Less daily hassle with tenants, but vacancy can be a bitch

    Plus, 20 year mortgage pays off before you know it for some real passive income.
    But you must choose wisely. Location and use are critical
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  13. #8088
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    Well hopefully each method works for all involved. As they say past performance is no indication of future performance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #8089
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    I hear that too. Perhaps home ownership levels retreating to those in the 60's is a good thing? Why? For who?
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  15. #8090
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Well hopefully each method works for all involved. As they say past performance is no indication of future performance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yup.

    I was watching Fareed Zakaria two Sundays ago, and had a smart guy from Morgan Stanley on with some great charts. Basically, in the last fifty years, what was hot one decade was nothing to minus, the next (which certainly is a warning for today's stock markets). But, bottom line, I have my money in a low cost Vanguard fund, just one, split of stocks and bonds, that has averaged 6.5 % over the last forty years. Survived '08 better than most. Last year was 18%. I barely look at it anymore. Zero bother. Now, I did mention that I regret not buying a ski condo way back and renting it, considering it retirement savings, because I'd have it today , but, hindsight is 20/20. I did miss a ton of worries in all that time.

    I'll bet you there are millions of landlords who either got ruined in 08, or are still hanging on, underwater, with crappy tenants, roofs going, foundations cracking, hoping, praying for another housing bubble to save them.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  16. #8091
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    For the record Fidelity would be happy to lend my 300k to trade with if I gave them 30k. However, trading on margin is not my game. Leverage in real estate is not different except I can hit the sell button in minutes and not pay 6% commission and be caught in an illiquid asset like real estate. I would contend the average Joe is better off living below their means, investing for 30-40 years in a low cost index fund and then spending their gains in old age. At normal rates of inflation, single family in most desirable areas seem to have too many carrying costs such as property tax, HOA dues and maintenance. no thanks.
    As I am sure you really know, the overlap between swing traders on margin and the average land lord is pretty miniscule. To be fair though, a large part of my argument is for the approachability to the average guy, not that real estate is bar none the best venue to invest in existence.

    And Benny, you act like stocks stocks didn't take a 50% haircut in 08/09. There are millions who took a bath there also. I'd bet even more sold out at the bottom also.
    Live Free or Die

  17. #8092
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    Too many scenarios to generalize.

  18. #8093
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    Absolutely.

  19. #8094
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    As I am sure you really know, the overlap between swing traders on margin and the average land lord is pretty miniscule. To be fair though, a large part of my argument is for the approachability to the average guy, not that real estate is bar none the best venue to invest in existence.

    And Benny, you act like stocks stocks didn't take a 50% haircut in 08/09. There are millions who took a bath there also. I'd bet even more sold out at the bottom also.
    Jezuz, dude, they are up like over 300% and more since then, still going up. The only people who took that bath did the very common stupid thing - they sold low, probably after they bought high.

    I think you've seen the heyday of RE. Sure, not certain markets, but, even around me, one of the richest places in the world, it pretty much sucks as an "investment" since the crash. A lot of people are still underwater from that time, especially if you include HELOC loans, which a lot of studies don't. Lord knows trillions were sucked out of all that fictional equity before everything went south.

    Boomers built this market, and Boomers are taking it to their graves, one house at a time, and it will take a few decades for the bubble valuations to settle down to real market values, because of that. Thank low interest rates and easing for saving the housing market from total disaster. Even so, you tell me how a lot of housing valuations make any sense when the house ownership rate of millennial is like 4%. 4%! I posted that above. When I was about 30, with the rest of my generation, it was about 30% for Boomers. That shit will not end well, but, as I said, it will take time. Old people, in general, don't move.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  20. #8095
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    They have no wealth. They have 1.6 trillion dollars of debt.

    Don't even start if you're calling Bitcoin wealth.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  21. #8096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Boomers built this market, and Boomers are taking it to their graves, one house at a time, and it will take a few decades for the bubble valuations to settle down to real market values, because of that. Thank low interest rates and easing for saving the housing market from total disaster. Even so, you tell me how a lot of housing valuations make any sense when the house ownership rate of millennial is like 4%. 4%! I posted that above. When I was about 30, with the rest of my generation, it was about 30% for Boomers. That shit will not end well, but, as I said, it will take time. Old people, in general, don't move.
    This is my concern.
    Took money out of the market to do a long term luxury real estate flip.
    Wondering who my buyers are and thinking I should exit sooner rather than later.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  22. #8097
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    You mean super?
    https://www.hellosuper.com/pricing

    Bitcoin isn't dead, but crypto is a pain in the ass to deal with and a lot can be broken soon by quantum computing methods or brute Force state actors

  23. #8098
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    However, unlike digital assets, everyone needs to eat, sleep, fuck and shit somewhere.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  24. #8099
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    Quote Originally Posted by mv2s4 View Post
    younger gens are gobbling up digital real estate


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  25. #8100
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    Quote Originally Posted by mv2s4 View Post
    Free cash flow favors the young though, he that earns wins & older gen earnings are predicated on credit expansion via USD. Younger gens have the grand asset - forward earnings power. They'll dictate the winner to a large degree.

    There's a grand-scale generational battle taking place where younger gens are gobbling up digital real estate & shying away from physical. Whoever comes out on top of the ideological war wins the keys to generational wealth transfer (or retention).
    Oh, I get it, it's a whole new digital world. It's different this time! Where have I heard that before?

    The Boomers built most of their wealth laddering up their RE holdings. They invented the "starter home". Remember that? My parents bought a house and stayed in it until the end, like everyone they knew. The Boomers turned it into a trading market. That's gone. Can't trade if no new money is entering, and moving to fictional assets like Bitcoin. If there is any money there. I say there is much more debt than cash.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

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