In depth analysis of what we're doing as a country (NSR):

**natty dread** · 01-14-2004, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by dipstik
I'm sick and tired of it. Every political discussion here just turns into someone quoting something stupid Bush once said 25 years ago and then it turns into a flame war

OK, I understand, those frickin liberal muckrakers, dredging shit up from 25 years ago. Assholes, how dare they impugn our president's intellect.
Fine, here are some gems from the last few years from President Shrub. Ancient history.

"The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." Austin, TX 11/22/00, "Slate"

"This is a world that is much more uncertain than the past. In the past we were certain, we were certain it was us versus the Russians in the past. We were certain, and therefore we had hugenuclear arsenals aimed at each other to keeps the peace. That's what we were certain of...You see, even though it's an uncertain world, we're certain of some things. We're certain that that even though the 'evil empire' may have passed, evil still remains. We're certain there are people that can't stand what America stands for...We're certain that there are madmen in this world, and there's terror, and there's missiles, and I'm certain of this too: I'm certain to maintain the peace, we betterhave a military of high morale, and I'm certain thatunder this administration, morale in the military is dangerously low." Albuquerque, NM, "Washington Post," 5/31/00

"Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it." Presidential Debate, 10/17/00

"These terrorists acts and the responses have got to end in order for us to get the framework--the groundwork, not framework--the groundwork to discuss a framework, to lay the--all right." 8/12/02

"We are resolved to rout out terror wherever it exists to save the world from freedom." Atlanta, 1/31/02; FDCH political transcripts

Want some more? There are hundreds, some funny, some pretty scary.
Funny how republicans get all worked up over ebonics, but they don't say anything about shrub's inability to elucidate simple points without mangling the language.

**mr_gyptian** · 01-14-2004, 07:30 PM

BH, snotty!! I'm offended. Highminded maybe.

BTW, the term is snot nosed liberal not snot nosed conservative.

as far as the definition of liberal. The US is the only country in the world where liberalism is equated with big government. Unfortunately this administration is changing that. Free trade and a reduction of entitlements is not what is happening. once these tax cuts are felt by the government, hopefully that will change. I'm not very confident in this.

**two_planks** · 01-14-2004, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
AS wild as it seems, sometimes I think that reinstituting the draft would be a good thing. Right now we're developing a military class of people, professional warmongers. The draft would dilute the military culture.

I don't agree with every thing you say Buster, in fact I don't agree with a lot of what you say. This on the other hand is a very intersesting concept, not sure if I agree but it gets the mind working.

The problem with "witty political banter" on this forum is that most don't take the time to think about what some one else has said. Just because some one has posted an idea that you don't agree with doesn't mean they are unintellegent, not informed, or badly educated. The thing is that there are many solutions to a given problem (politics isn't math). If a person can present a well thought out opinion, its worth reading and considering. If your going to have a political debate, fine, just debate your point because all the name calling gets real old, real fast.

**char** · 01-14-2004, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian

as far as the definition of liberal. The US is the only country in the world where liberalism is equated with big government. Unfortunately this administration is changing that. Free trade and a reduction of entitlements is not what is happening. once these tax cuts are felt by the government, hopefully that will change. I'm not very confident in this.

Yeah, it is totally backward. Under Clinton the government got SMALLER, under Bush the government has INCREASED by over 1 million. We also got tax cuts and increased spending. Genius. We got an unfunded education plan, we got an unfunded Healthy Forest Initiative, we went to war in two countries and we got a tax cut. What about this is fiscally responsible or conservative?

Blurred Elevens · 01-14-2004, 07:39 PM

Easy to say when your on the sidelines....dig in studmuffin.

**dipstik** · 01-14-2004, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
The US is the only country in the world where liberalism is equated with big government.

Theres a reason for that. Most countries see past "liberalism" They know its a waste of time.

**char** · 01-14-2004, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Easy to say when your on the sidelines....dig in studmuffin.

Who are you talking to? Or is that just a random comment to induce bickering?

**basom** · 01-14-2004, 07:40 PM

http://www.scoopsnoodle.com/noodlez4/DSC06054-01.jpg

Blurred Elevens · 01-14-2004, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by char
Who are you talking to? Or is that just a random comment to induce bickering?

It was to the wiseass who wasn't in this arguement, but was giving us tips on how to argue....

**dipstik** · 01-14-2004, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by natty dread
Originally posted by dipstik
I'm sick and tired of it. Every political discussion here just turns into someone quoting something stupid Bush once said 25 years ago and then it turns into a flame war

OK, I understand, those frickin liberal muckrakers, dredging shit up from 25 years ago. Assholes, how dare they impugn our president's intellect.
Fine, here are some gems from the last few years from President Shrub. Ancient history.

"The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." Austin, TX 11/22/00, "Slate"

"This is a world that is much more uncertain than the past. In the past we were certain, we were certain it was us versus the Russians in the past. We were certain, and therefore we had hugenuclear arsenals aimed at each other to keeps the peace. That's what we were certain of...You see, even though it's an uncertain world, we're certain of some things. We're certain that that even though the 'evil empire' may have passed, evil still remains. We're certain there are people that can't stand what America stands for...We're certain that there are madmen in this world, and there's terror, and there's missiles, and I'm certain of this too: I'm certain to maintain the peace, we betterhave a military of high morale, and I'm certain thatunder this administration, morale in the military is dangerously low." Albuquerque, NM, "Washington Post," 5/31/00

"Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it." Presidential Debate, 10/17/00

"These terrorists acts and the responses have got to end in order for us to get the framework--the groundwork, not framework--the groundwork to discuss a framework, to lay the--all right." 8/12/02

"We are resolved to rout out terror wherever it exists to save the world from freedom." Atlanta, 1/31/02; FDCH political transcripts

Want some more? There are hundreds, some funny, some pretty scary.
Funny how republicans get all worked up over ebonics, but they don't say anything about shrub's inability to elucidate simple points without mangling the language.

The funniest thing about liberals is how they are perfect. I really admire liberals, them being perfect and all. They never spill their milk, or slip on ice. They never drop a glass, or forget someones birthday. They are perfect, totally perfect humans. I mean, making a mistake means you are an idiot. Right?

Come on dipshits, if someone were to make at least 3 speeches a day, everyday, for 3 years in a row, don't you think they would make a mistake here and there? Thats the problem with liberals, they only look at the facts that they like, only the facts that make them happy. They look at the fact that Bush made a few mistakes in some of his speecehs, but they don't look at the fact that he's made thousands of speeches. Thats where the problem lies, they are just too ignorant to see the big picture, too ignorant to see all the facts. I know some of them will try to refute this poorly, and I will laugh.

**two_planks** · 01-14-2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
It was to the wiseass who wasn't in this arguement, but was giving us tips on how to argue....

Blurred Elevens · 01-14-2004, 07:49 PM

It's not like Bush invented the internet like Gore did...

**basom** · 01-14-2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by dipstik
Thats the problem with liberals, they only look at the facts that they like, only the facts that make them happy.

um, dipstik, i would call that a HUMAN quality.

**Will** · 01-14-2004, 07:59 PM

This is hilarious! Blurred throws out insults like a madman without an argument (wait a minute...), then others respond with their own slander!

I gotta say, Buster at least is throwing out ideas along with the slander. Gotta give him credit for that.

Mr.G - Abu Nidal killed himself in 2002, or perhaps was killed by Iraq's security forces. Yeah, he and his organization were in Iraq, but they were basically defunct for much of the 90s.
Abu Abbas had been on the lam since 85. Certainly a bad man, but worth invading a country over?
If their presence in Iraq justifies the war, why weren't they mentioned in the build up to the war? It's not like it was secret they were there.

The argument over the war was (and still is) too often portrayed as an argument between "do nothing" and "invade NOW", but there were other options. Containment was working, that's why we were bombing iraq for most of the 90s. That's why we're not finding WMDs now, because the program put in place to prevent Iraq from building those weapons was working. What was the matter with strengthing that effort and increasing international resolve and cooperation?

Saddam was a bastard who needed to be dealt with, that need should have been balanced against the effect a war to oust him would have on stability in the region and our image in the Arab world.

(I can't believe I'm responding to Blurred, but...) Blurred argues about his right to protect his country and his family. If someone threatens his family, he believes he is justified in taking them on. Fair point, but if you only suspect that someone threatens your family, and if you go after them pre-emptively and piss off the entire neighborhood as well as your aggressor's entire family.... well, that seems like a decision that needs to be weighed very carefully.

**dipstik** · 01-14-2004, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by basom
um, dipstik, i would call that a HUMAN quality.

l
yeah but only when it isn't obvious. These liberals have been proven wrong numerous times with facts, but they still ignore the facts. I think that is whats most frustrating.

Blurred Elevens · 01-14-2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Will

(I can't believe I'm responding to Blurred, but...) Blurred argues about his right to protect his country and his family. If someone threatens his family, he believes he is justified in taking them on. Fair point, but if you only suspect that someone threatens your family, and if you go after them pre-emptively and piss off the entire neighborhood as well as your aggressor's entire family.... well, that seems like a decision that needs to be weighed very carefully.

First I like to welcome you JONG!!! Second of all, ignoramuses like yourself haven't been playing along for 5 years, we have. Until than, shut your trap and go play with your dick or something. We've discussed politics here, powdermag.com, and the K2 Chatter board. Alot of the things we say encompass arguments 4 or 5 years old. You chiming in is like telling us all the sky is blue....mind your own jerkoff....read these boards for awhile, and maybe we might give you respect. I'll humor you and answer your dumbass question.

How in the fuck is attacking someone who kicked out weapons inspectors who were there as a requirement of getting your ass kicked for invading your neighbor who was lowering your price for your oil by selling it cheaply? Than, after 9-11, (in a 9-11 enviroment)was proven to back terrorism by funding the families of Palestinian suicide bombers with $25,000 a pop?

And you call this "pre-emptive"???? Post first, than smoke crack you stupid fucking liberal fag....there you have it...shithead. Now go fuck youself.

**Steven S. Dallas** · 01-14-2004, 08:20 PM

You're doing a lot of talking about facts, but I don't see you providing any. It's true that Bush makes a lot of speeches, and so it's inevitable that he's going to make some mistakes. That doesn't make it any less funny when he makes them. If you want a fact, then I've got one for you: George W. Bush is not a very intelligent man. That doesn't make him stupid; it just makes him not that smart. But I don't think that's what liberals hold against him, just as conservatives didn't really have anything against Clinton for being promiscuous (or maybe they did, but that's just personal and not political- or shouldn't be).

**basom** · 01-14-2004, 08:26 PM

i like bush because i have a higher i.Q. than he does and a higher GPA in school. i'm a carpenter, he's el presidente. am i selling myself short in life?

**bigAK** · 01-14-2004, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by dipstik
Come on dipshits, if someone were to make at least 3 speeches a day, everyday, for 3 years in a row, don't you think they would make a mistake here and there? Thats the problem with liberals, they only look at the facts that they like, only the facts that make them happy. They look at the fact that Bush made a few mistakes in some of his speecehs, but they don't look at the fact that he's made thousands of speeches. Thats where the problem lies, they are just too ignorant to see the big picture, too ignorant to see all the facts. I know some of them will try to refute this poorly, and I will laugh.

before calling anyone a dipshit, get your own facts straight, and remember that you're (emphasized because apparently you don't know the difference between your and you're) the one who wanted to keep things civil. a quick check of the president's schedule indicates he's made 17 speeches this year, far less than your guess of at least 3 a day. accounting for the month of august that he spends on vacation, he's made around 1200 speeches since taking office.
i agree that everyone makes mistakes, but i honestly believe that if you sat down and had a conversation with bush, you'd think he was uninteresting and a little undereducated. all natty was pointing out is his command of the english language isn't top-notch.
as for your other facts, what countries (other than those in the middle east) have outright rejected liberal points of view? the only other one i've lived in had an active and presiding liberal party...

**dipstik** · 01-14-2004, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Alex P. Keaton
If you want a fact, then I've got one for you: George W. Bush is not a very intelligent man.

See the thing is MY facts were just that, facts. They were from many different reliable news sources.

Can you please show me the artcile or "fact" in at least two different reliable news sources that says that Bush is "unintellignet"???

**basom** · 01-14-2004, 08:34 PM

lets see your citations first dippy

**gonzo** · 01-14-2004, 08:36 PM

How many of you knew anything or gave a crap about the "Army War College" (whatever and whereever the fuck it is/may be) before this article came out?

The only thing that is new or spicy about this article is that it was written by a guy who is employed by a school that has "Army" in the title.

Whoop-de-fuckin-do. If every professor at every military school supported every move that the military ever made, hell would freeze over. That is the nature of academic institutions.

To all of you that say Bush is stupid, take your heads out of your asses. Anyone that can get themselves elected to the most powerful position on the planet is not stupid. He obviously is a shitty public speaker and many of you obviously disagree with decisions he has made, but the man is not stupid. Get a clue.

**gonzo** · 01-14-2004, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by basom
lets see your citations first dippy

Dude. I don't care how hooked up your family is. If you graduate from Yale undergrad, HBS, own a major sports franchise, "govern" a state, and get elected president you are NOT stupid. End of story.

**basom** · 01-14-2004, 08:42 PM

all i know gonz is i got a higher sat score than him, and i am also dyslexic. he obviously has a great political team and a lot of people seem to think he makes a lot of sense. i like him cause i feel like i am on the same briteness level as him, not like that crazy smart dukakis guy

**char** · 01-14-2004, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by gonzo
How many of you knew anything or gave a crap about the "Army War College" (whatever and whereever the fuck it is/may be) before this article came out?

I did. Whoopde-do.

What is important about the paper that is the most recent of a series of papers saying that invading Iraq was a political and tactical mistake, not where it came from.