Doggie stoke

[reckless toboggan]

re: shock collars

I'm considering one for my younger dog. All dogs are different. I needed a bark collar for one of my Elkhounds years ago, it was the only way to keep peace with the neighbors who were not unreasonable people. That dog just loved to bark and when I was at work he'd bark constantly. The collar fixed that and kept the peace.

Young-dog has a radius outside of which he displays symptoms of deafness. This is a hard thing to overcome, especially living in the city as I do. A collar would be a good way to remind him that dad is in charge no matter how far from dad he gets.

Or you could spend the necessary time, effort, and responsibility to learn to train your dog properly.

My guess is you won't. Instead if having a dog that wants to please you out of love and respect, you'll take the lazy way out and zap it into fear and submission.

Tick, tick, tick, tick....

[irul&ublo]

Or you could spend the necessary time, effort, and responsibility to learn to train your dog properly.

My guess is you won't. Instead if having a dog that loves and respects you, you'll take the lazy way out and zap it into fear and submission.

Tick, tick, tick, tick....

You probably won't use a prong collar either.

[Plainview]

Yeah, whatever man.

Perhaps you could offer some suggestions as to how you encourage a dog that is not near you listen to you? He listens well enough within a certain radius, outside that no dice and I've spent and continue to spend time working on reinforcing his training. I'm open to suggestions and I'm not clueless as to how to train a dog using positive reinforcement. I've owned several dogs and had this issue with two of them and not found a great solution yet.

tick tick tick indeed.

People also seem to misunderstand the purpose and use of a shock collar which is why we get idiotic posts like yours. The purpose is not to shock the dog into submission or make him fear anything but believe whatever you want.

[reckless toboggan]

Lots of leash work of different lengths. Start at 6 feet. Then 10. Then 20. Then 30. Anytime he doesn't return on command he goes back to 6 feet. It can take a long time, a lot of work, patience, and positive reinforcement but it works. It's how professional trainers (not the dumbfucks with reality shows) do it.

Or you can be lazy, which appears to be what you've chosen.

Tick,tick,tick...

[reckless toboggan]

You probably won't use a prong collar either.

No need if you take the time and learn to train properly.

[Plainview]

Or you can be lazy, which appears to be what you've chosen.

Tick,tick,tick...

you know what assuming does, right?

How long of a leash do I need to be able to recall him from the end of my block?

He's smart enough to know when he has a leash on and when not.

[reckless toboggan]

you know what assuming does, right?

How long of a leash do I need to be able to recall him from the end of my block?

He's smart enough to know when he has a leash on and when not.

Depends on how long your block is.

It's not about him knowing when he's on leash or not.

It's about you taking the time, and putting in the patience and effort, to learn to train him properly so that it doesn't matter if he's on leash or not.

[Plainview]

How much time and effort do you expect it to take? He recalls just fine on leash, even a 30' which I have and use. Longer than that isn't real practical around here. Even when off leash he recalls fine, until he gets beyond a certain distance which i'd guess is about 100'. The problem doesn't manifest itself out in the woods, but in the city where there are lots of distractions, other dogs, people, etc. it becomes a real issue.

If a buzz from a collar would interrupt his thought process and remind him that he still needs to listen I don't see the downside, other than having to listen to people like you who only want to insult people based on their misplaced assumptions.

[irul&ublo]

No need if you take the time and learn to train properly.

Assuming you begin training the dog as a pup, probably true.

I've worked with some really good trainers, who do everything from police dogs, bomb dogs, rescue...the whole gamut. They generally agree with what you say. Especially the long leash work. But they also say that sometimes a prong is a useful tool. Same for shock collars, although all would try a noise or citronella spray collar first.

[reckless toboggan]

How much time and effort do you expect it to take? (1) He recalls just fine on leash, even a 30' which I have and use.

Longer than that isn't real practical around here. (2)


Even when off leash he recalls fine, until he gets beyond a certain distance which i'd guess is about 100'. The problem doesn't manifest itself out in the woods, but in the city where there are lots of distractions, other dogs, people, etc. it becomes a real issue. (3)

If a buzz from a collar would interrupt his thought process and remind him that he still needs to listen I don't see the downside, other than having to listen to people like you who only want to insult people based on their misplaced assumptions. (4)

(1) sometimes it can take years, but usually about 6 months works.

(2) train in areas where it is practical

(3) your dog shouldn't be 100 feet away from you, off leash, in a busy city, especially if he has bad recall

(4) you can learn to train him and it won't matter if he's on or off leash, if you take time and make the effort. You are choosing not to. You posted that you were open minded and open to suggestions. You received them. It turns out you just want to do whatever it was you were going to do anyway. So have fun with that. And when your dog snaps, or stops responding to the shock collar, you'll finally learn that he needs to please you out of love, not fear. When a dog wants to please you out of love, because you've trained him to understand that you are the best thing ever, he won't pay attention to distractions, he'll only pay attention to you. It takes work, time, and years (if not a lifetime) of constant and consistent training whenever your out with him. Play is a great reward and helps with his bonding to you, which reinforces the recall.

But it sounds like your gonna have your accessory dog and zap him. Have a fun time with that.

[reckless toboggan]

Assuming you begin training the dog as a pup, probably true.

I've worked with some really good trainers, who do everything from police dogs, bomb dogs, rescue...the whole gamut. They generally agree with what you say. Especially the long leash work. But they also say that sometimes a prong is a useful tool. Same for shock collars, although all would try a noise or citronella spray collar first.

There are so many more positive feedbacks that work, instead if shock collars and prongs. They just take more time and effort, but the usually result in a dog that pleases and performs out of love, not fear of pain or shock.

The ones that learn out of pain or shock (or worse, absolute domination), are usually the ones that can snap, turn, or switch loyalty if they feel someone else is more dominant that their owner. This is difficult to predict, and the dog becomes a problem. If they learn from pain and fear, then they'll listen to whomever provides the most painful, fearful, dominance.

If your dog pleases you out of love, its almost impossible to break that loyalty, bond, and attention.

I know which I'd rather have, and that's why I train my dogs that way. In fact, many of my friends have asked me to help train their dogs too, after they've seen mine with me. I have done so reluctantly (because, like I said before, it is a life long process, and takes a lot of time, which I don't necessarily have), and I tend to train the owner, not the dog.

[Plainview]

I'm open to suggestions that work. I've been working with him on a long leash and it hasn't had the desired effect. I knew that's what you were going to suggest as it's what every trainer suggests and I'd be an idiot to not have tried that already. As I said, he recalls fine on-leash (of whatever length) and within a certain distance. Outside that distance things change.

Saying he shouldn't be that far away does nothing to change the fact that if he gets that far away I can't reliably recall him, unlike my other dog who recalls fine from any distance. On the rare occasion that he does get that far away I need to be able to recall him.

This is the one area that we're having problems and the suggestions from trainers haven't worked so to my mind when what is supposed to work doesn't it becomes time to try other methods. But if it makes you feel better to call me names and make false assumptions, have at it.

Oh, and prong collars work great for teaching dogs not to pull on leashes. Once they learn, the prong collar is no longer necessary. I've used it with great success on my last three dogs, including the one we're discussing now, and it has been recommended by the last two trainers I've worked with which just goes to show that there are different ways to skin this cat and there is not necessarily one right way.

None of my dogs has ever snapped at me.

[reckless toboggan]

Once again, you don't need prong collars to stop pulling (or for any other reason) if you know how to properly use patience and positive reinforcement.

Here is a pretty good site with reasonable, non-shock, non-prong, positive reinforcement training methods:

http://drsophiayin.com/resources/dog_behavior

If your dog isn't listening, you need to go back to the very beginning regarding distractions. It will take a long time to overcome the bad habit, you and your dog have developed, of not responding to you regardless of distraction.

Here's where you need to restart:
http://drsophiayin.com/videos/entry/come_when_called

As for the recall, if your dog doesn't view you as the be-all-end-all greatest thing in his universe, then he won't listen to you.

Eventually, he'll get used to a shock collar and ignore it, or return to you out of fear of the shock.

You need to train and play and gain loyalty from your dog through making yourself irresistible to your dog...to making you more important than any other distractions.

You have obviously not done that with this dog, and you are now having this problem.

Go buy you gadget and zap your dog. There, you have the permission and validation you were looking for on a ski internet forum.

Wow.

Have a great evening.

[Plainview]

I would prefer not to use the collar, which is why I asked for alternatives but all you can do is assume you have the answer and that I'm an idiot even though your answer, which is the same answer I've been given by others and which I've tried for the last 8 months, isn't working. Your assumptions and combative attitude don't serve you well. You haven't asked any questions or tried to understand the problem, just started right in with the ridicule and false assumptions. Generally if you want people to listen to you, insulting them isn't the best way to go about it. Good day, sir.

[Flyoverland Captive]

Plainview, you may have to accept that your dog has hit his training limit. I had a husky/shepherd mix who was smart as a whip, loyal as hell, and absolutely in love with me. On leash-free walks, she would recall easily until she got about 100 yards away. At that point it was as if I didn't exist. Trust me, this dog was trained; but I could never get past her wild instincts when she got too far away. I knew her limits, and on walks would keep her within 75 yards. Win win.

[reckless toboggan]

Plainview, you may have to accept that your dog has hit his training limit. I had a husky/shepherd mix who was smart as a whip, loyal as hell, and absolutely in love with me. On leash-free walks, she would recall easily until she got about 100 yards away. At that point it was as if I didn't exist. Trust me, this dog was trained; but I could never get past her wild instincts when she got too far away. I knew her limits, and on walks would keep her within 75 yards. Win win.

Another great suggestion that avoids shock and fear returns.

[Flyoverland Captive]

I should add that her training was 99% positive reinforcement-based. She was showered in love when she complied, ignored when she didn't. Dogs are pack animals; being shunned is hell for a dog.

[Plainview]

I should add that her training was 99% positive reinforcement-based. She was showered in love when she complied, ignored when she didn't. Dogs are pack animals; being shunned is hell for a dog.

This is the approach I've always taken with my dogs and my situation sounds exactly like yours.

And yet, for some reason, you get a pass from rt while I'm ridiculed for wanting to try to overcome that limitation. How come it's okay for your dog to not love you enough to come from any distance but I'm a lazy asshole when mine doesn't?

Again, the collar isn't about causing pain and instilling fear. If it was I wouldn't be willing to try it. Maybe the problem is with the term "shock collar." It's not a frigging taser. I've felt it and it's an annoying sensation but not enough to cause any real pain. The idea is that it breaks the dogs concentration and allows it to refocus just like a pop of the collar, not that it shocks the shit out of it and causes it to run back to you in fear. To me it just seems like maybe it's worth a shot in situations like this. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but why not try? All training is based on conditioning, the dog gets used to the idea that certain behaviors win praise from you and eventually the method originally used to correct undesirable behavior, whether it's a sharp pop on the leash, a corrective word/sound, or a mild stinging sensation is no longer needed.

[reckless toboggan]

This is the approach I've always taken with my dogs and my situation sounds exactly like yours.

And yet, for some reason, you get a pass from rt while I'm ridiculed for wanting to try to overcome that limitation. How come it's okay for your dog to not love you enough to come from any distance but I'm a lazy asshole when mine doesn't?

Again, the collar isn't about causing pain and instilling fear. If it was I wouldn't be willing to try it. Maybe the problem is with the term "shock collar." It's not a frigging taser. I've felt it and it's an annoying sensation but not enough to cause any real pain. The idea is that it breaks the dogs concentration and allows it to refocus just like a pop of the collar, not that it shocks the shit out of it and causes it to run back to you in fear. To me it just seems like maybe it's worth a shot in situations like this. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but why not try? All training is based on conditioning, the dog gets used to the idea that certain behaviors win praise from you and eventually the method originally used to correct undesirable behavior, whether it's a sharp pop on the leash, a corrective word/sound, or a mild stinging sensation is no longer needed.

He gets a pass because he controls his dogs behavior before it gets out of control. You are not. That makes you the asshole with the dog that doesn't listen.

Also, training doesn't use a sharp pop on the leash, a corrective word/sound, or a mild stinging sensation.

That's where your going wrong. That is not positive reinforcement, and leads to the trouble you have now.

Praise and shunning with just a look trains dogs. The commands are arbitrary. The pop on the leash is fear. If your yanking or popping on the leash, your not training your dog. Your punishing your dog. This is not positive reinforcement.

You can make a kissing sound and that can be enough to get your dog to do what it's supposed to,...if you put in the time, effort, learning, and training.

Again. Yanking the leash, prongs, and shock collars are not necessary, just lazy. You want your dog to pay attention to you at all times, not pay attention to the leash when you yank it. That doesn't teach the dog to pay attention to you out of loyalty, it teaches the dog fear and a sharp choking.

And you still haven't provided a reason for you dog to be 100 feet away from you, off leash, in a busy distracting city, as per your previous post.

That also doesn't strike me as something a responsible owner would do.

It seems like either this is an awesome troll, and I fell hook line and sinker, or you really have no idea how dogs work properly.

[Flyoverland Captive]

Not every dog can be trained to perfection. Know your dog's limits and work within them.

My "smart" dog has passed. My " dumb" one Is 11, and stubborn as hell. She obeys commands, when the mood suits her.

[reckless toboggan]

Not every dog can be trained to perfection. Know your dog's limits and work within them.

Exactly. And keep working with positive reinforcements. It is a lifelong practice, not a final destination.

[Plainview]

He gets a pass because he controls his dogs behavior before it gets out of control. You are not. That makes you the asshole with the dog that doesn't listen.,,,.

Jesus you're a smug fucking tool. How do you think he found out where his dog's limitations were? Obviously the dog had to get to the point where he couldn't control it to learn that it couldn't be controlled beyond that point. The fact that he's willing to live with that limitation is okay though... (And flyoverland - I mean no disrespect or criticism of you, we each choose our battles and it may be that I learn to live with the same limitation, I just haven't gotten to that point yet).

Whatever, this isn't stoke and is detrimental to this thread.

[Flyoverland Captive]

^^^ No disrespect read at all. Just trying to help each other out.

And this is kinda stoke, 'cause we all love the doggies.

[reckless toboggan]

Whatever, this isn't stoke and is detrimental to this thread.

You're right. Electrocuting your dog because you're not happy with its comfort zone and/or limitations is not stoke.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[mtngirl79]

I don't understand why this is an issue. Call the dog before he gets near his limit. I'm guessing this has more to do with him chasing skiers...

Some dogs, like Jack are easy, Will. Others take a lot longer and a lot more time and work.

Oh, and shock collars aren't stoke, either. You started it...you probably should have started a separate thread for something you knew would be contoversial...