Why is the industry still using field books for snow data, for the most part?

[Buzzworthy]

Besides the horrible budgets most gov't agencies have?

Couple something like this:



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+



+



=


A superb solution to gather, interpolate, analyze and then put said data on a main database.


I have renewed interest in my CEO to go ahead with ideas like this. Then there is mapping avie areas, where I am renewing (or about to, hold tight Doug) working with Doug Scott of Avalanche.org. Then there is other technology that is out there for ground water testing, that could certainly be adaptable to snow and so forth.

I have been made project leader on this task of bringing Snow Science into our realm of markets we work with as a Ultra Rugged Handheld manufacturer.

www.junipersys.com


My first goal is to team with a company that does snow profiling software to put on a waterproof, shockproof, dustproof device. Not a freakin laptop or Palm. The just won't and don't hold up.

http://www.gasman.com/snowproplus.htm

http://www.snowpilot.org/

[Buzzworthy]

That is a whole lot of useful data. I have a project going that you and Doug might find very interesting. I've created a new website called http://avalanchedata.com -- The idea behind this service is to allow Avalanche Forecast Centers and Backcountry Observers to login and submit markers and information to an interactive map. We have our own WMS (web map server) which we can use to overlay Avalanche Path shapefiles and other hazard information. In addition we have many data overlays with current weather, wind speed, temps, etc, etc that should give you a complete view of any backcountry spot or avalanche area. Here are a few links to check out to see my work:

http://backcountrymaps.com/ft_maps/show/32 <- Turnagain Pass, AK -- Google Hybrid + Avalanche Paths, Hazards, Contours, Stream and Trail overlay from our WMS server

http://backcountrymaps.com/ft_maps/show/13 <- Utah Wasatch Avalanche Hazards + USGS Aerial Overlay

http://avalanchedata.com <- Site where Forecast Centers and Backcountry Observers can input any sort of data

http://backcountrymaps.com <- Site for backcountry trip reports, research, weather, trip ideas, anything.

Also, we have the a new feature which will allow uses to embed the custom maps that they create into their personal websites. We are looking for beta users so if anyone is interested please let me know. It would be really cool to setup the site to allow for snowpilot data uploads and create markers and information based on those uploads. Nice work and that device looks pretty sweet.

---
http://backcountrymaps.com
http://avalanchedata.com

I would like to talk with you. I also need to go thru your links, but am a bit swamped right now. Playing catch up after being out for 3 weeks.

I would like to find out what kind of beta users you are looking for. We may be able to network with some of the contacts I have been making over the past year, trying to get this project off the ground. Looks like I am finally getting the corp. support I need.

I do sales in the rugged handheld industry and want to bring my work into my other world, the white one.

We are a Campbell Scientific Company as well, more here: http://www.campbellsci.com/index.cfm

Lots of weather data comes from this equipment that we all use. Alta's weather station is Campbell's for one example.

email me at rds at junipersys dottie com when you get a chance

I need all the help I can get and I know many of you would like to see more than what is currently available, or at least in an easy to find place with reliability, frequency and ................. and to save all that data transcription and the errors that inherently go along with transcription.

Time to call snowpro and snowpilot!

Ron
Buzz

[Hacksaw]

Besides the horrible budgets most gov't agencies have?

"Why is the industry still using field books for snow data?

Because they work..........

Their waterproof, dustproof, don't require batteries, don't require anti-virus, their crushproof (from skiing falls or in a pack tossed in the back of a truck), don't require passwords, their cheap, fit in a jacket pocket, don't need a protective case and you can write in the margins other field notes and phone numbers....... Oh, and a lot of the avalanche centers don't have the $$$ to use these hi-tec systems your coming up with. Yea, its a budget and workload thing...

If your looking for good cheap field books check out Hacksaw Publishing, inc.

http://members.aol.com/bsfbsnow

Cheers,
Halsted Morris

[Buzzworthy]

True, they work. No arguement.

But if you had a choice??? Had the money?? Could do your job faster and more effiecient? Get a GPS position too without pulling out some other device? Tap drop down menus, get your data (non volatile) and get out??

Trust me, you can throw this thing off the roof if you want, the Archer is waterproof, shockproof and dustproof.

I understand many agencies it comes down to budget. Tremper laughed at me on the phone, I knew he would. But I have another client that looks to be heading this route, more on the GPS and mapping side/boundary side. I do see this solution coming to fruition in the private sector first.


Halsted, I value your opinions here, I do like constructive critisism. Please keep it coming, I like to know the mentality and obstacles I am up against. Mainly I see it being a $ thing, but like to see the whole picture.


But I would bet you a pair of skis that if you could use this ONE device for all you need to do out there (17 oz total), you would use it.

[Conundrum]

I worked for a company that made software for handhelds. The software was cool as hell but we're talking a pretty big market base for this software, and the ROI still wasn't there. So you take a very small market base plus hardware that really isn't up to par yet, and you are not left with a lot of money to be made. Maybe with some grants and private sponsors, this type of thing could happen. But, most guide services go on their own collected data which can change with a couple degrees of aspect and private parties who just want to ride the goods, you are only left with gov agencies and researchers...

Don't get me wrong, I think that it's really cool software and a great idea, I just don't think in terms of money, many people are going to pay for the development and distribution of this stuff.

[Buzzworthy]

Don't get me wrong, I think that it's really cool software and a great idea, I just don't think in terms of money, many people are going to pay for the development and distribution of this stuff.

The development is there. The distrubution would be my job. I have the solution and a targeted market and unfortunately the USFS Avalanche Forecaster is not it as of yet anyway.

The thing is we make field computers for harsh environments (not like a Palm, whos only place is indoors really). Our device can withstand -22 degree F temps and has been tested in -45F.

I guess I am modeling after a many year uphill battle with a certain Forestry program that in now used by all FIA groups in the USDAFS as well as in other forestry agencies, on OUR handhelds. It was a very small market back then and field books were the tool of choice. Hell, I have a Forestry degree and had my hand on a handheld maybe a dozen times in college.

I am getting budget approved for some higher profile people to be "sponsored" so to speak by our company to use our Archer for their work. But my plans are to take it farther and eventually have the same success as our forestry scenario. It really is like looking into a mirror, no budget, field books work fine, ....... now the USDAFS accounts for a large portion of our business, let alone all the state and private agencies, plus Joe Forester on his own.


A fully integrated system with software and GPS, looking around $1700-2K. Not cheap, but the return of investment (ROI) over time takes the sticker shock away and it actually pays for itself. I forsee the head dude in charge getting one first, while the lower guys run field books. Then the challenge is to sync data together. Then the idea comes back to the head dude that he needs more tools. IT WILL MAKE HIS JOB EASIER. Ding, ding, ding.

Is the road ahead bumpy to say the least, yes.


Other technologies in the skiing market or otherwise took time. Look at beacons. The world wide standard frequency of 457 kHz was adopted in 86. The US took 10 years more to make that a standard here, instead using 2.275 kHz as the standard since 1968.

Will I work with people across the pond more first then? Maybe in conjunction??


This is just the tip of the iceberg as far as applications go.

[Conundrum]

Cool Buzzworthy, I'm all for it! I agree that it will be a battle though. Good luck and if you need anyone to product test in Idaho, I'm happy to do it

[NorCascader]

I'm a land surveyor. We use technology paired with hard notes. Hard notes in our industry are essential because they stand the test of time, not to mention critical in legal battles.

It's amazing when you need to find something from 1994, how much easier it is to go to the field book. You can view or reconstruct what data was recorded and feel a sense of history. We have bookshelves upon bookshelves of recorded data. Hard notes don't get lost or deleted. Crashing computers and an uncertain future make pencil and paper important.

Field books are in, technology is in. Using both is the clear path to the future.

[Buzzworthy]

Ah yes, the land surveyor, a similar situation. I too was a LS for 2+ years.

In the past, this was a very common practice. The devices used for data collection sometimes were volatile, meaning your data can be lost on a powerloss, something goes freaky in the program on that rare occasion. Lots of things can happen, did happen and wait, wait for it, ..........don't have to happen anymore. Either of our handhelds, the Allegro CX or the Archer have non volatile data storage. Your data are safe, period.

Take our Allegro CX, http://www.junipersys.com/products/p...?id=99&sid=175 , it has been used widely in the LS industry for years by Sokkia, Leica, Eagle Point (SMI) and even some Topcon dealers offer this instead of the FC2000.

Sokkia Allegro CX:



Leica Allegro CX:



Eagle Point/SMI Allegro CX:




The Archer just shipped about a week ago so we will be seeing much more advertising soon.

I'm a land surveyor. We use technology paired with hard notes. Hard notes in our industry are essential because they stand the test of time, not to mention critical in legal battles.

It's amazing when you need to find something from 1994, how much easier it is to go to the field book. You can view or reconstruct what data was recorded and feel a sense of history. We have bookshelves upon bookshelves of recorded data. Hard notes don't get lost or deleted. Crashing computers and an uncertain future make pencil and paper important.

Field books are in, technology is in. Using both is the clear path to the future.

[Hacksaw]

True, they work. No arguement.

But if you had a choice??? Had the money?? Could do your job faster and more effiecient? Get a GPS position too without pulling out some other device? Tap drop down menus, get your data (non volatile) and get out??

Trust me, you can throw this thing off the roof if you want, the Archer is waterproof, shockproof and dustproof.

I understand many agencies it comes down to budget. Tremper laughed at me on the phone, I knew he would. But I have another client that looks to be heading this route, more on the GPS and mapping side/boundary side. I do see this solution coming to fruition in the private sector first.


Halsted, I value your opinions here, I do like constructive critisism. Please keep it coming, I like to know the mentality and obstacles I am up against. Mainly I see it being a $ thing, but like to see the whole picture.


But I would bet you a pair of skis that if you could use this ONE device for all you need to do out there (17 oz total), you would use it.

Buzz,
Wow, its nice to know that my opinions are valued.

Yes, at least with the CAIC it would be a budget issue to buy these items.

But, more importantly is the "quality" of the snowpit data that the CAIC would receive. I just can't see handing these field units out to "John Q. Public" and expect to get useful data. So, along with the physical unit development costs there would need to be some major "user/observer" trainings that would also have to be added into the overall cost.

The other more difficult thing to deal with, will be the "avalanche of field data." Its one thing to get a lot of field observations coming in on a given day. But, the solo CAIC forecaster in the Boulder office, would be really streched to get much time for analysis of the data in a timely manner. Its great to have the means and method to gather this field data, but having the means and methods to just have time to look at the snowpits will be the sticking point. And the other sticking point is how snowpits can be flawed by "spatial variability." But, that's another subject.

As far as if I'd like to use one of these units, I don't know. What kind of skis are you offering? But, it would be interesting to try one. I really don't know if one of these units would make doing snowpits faster.

Is there space on the unit to have all the non-snowpit information (check my website under features) pages that I have in my fieldbook? You should see all the "non-snowpit" info I have in my fieldbook. I don't think that GPS feature is that important to me, since my study sites are well established and knowen to the CAIC forecasters. And my experience with GPS in the mountains and Arctic hasn't always been positive one.

I really don't know that much about the GIS stuff. Other CAIC staff know a lot about it; and have shown me some really cool stuff you can do with it. But, so far no one has really applied it with much success to real avalanche forecasting. There have been lots of models, but I don't think they have worked on a large (ie statewide) scale.

The avalanche mapping stuff that Doug Scott has done is "helpful." I helped him with his Loveland Pass area maps (and there are still spots he doesn't have on the map). I think the maps are a good "general tool" of where avalanches can happen. But, folks should be remember that the exact boundaries shown on the map may not reflect actual conditions from day to day. I'd hate to see someone standing with a GPS unit saying their "safe" because their 15 feet outside of what the map says is an "avalanche path." I've seen people pull such stunts in the mountains before.

I'm also an avalanche guy, that takes maps with a BIG grain of salt. Check out my posting about contour intervals on Baffin Island on the "Contour Interval & Slope Angle," thread. Folks should remember that small slopes that are less then 40' can still avalanche and kill you. And they can often be "hidden" between the contour intervals on your map. So, don't put blind faith into what the map shows, is my additude.

I think the main thing about all this new technology needs to be, "how it can be used by the end user in the field." Not just how the avalanche center uses the data for forecasting. I think you maybe headed in the right direction. But, cost is going to be the big stumbling block.

Most if not all of the avalanche centers in the US don't have much extra money. The problem is that the avalanche centers have learned to opperate on slim budgets. So, the higher-up administrators would just say, "You've done your job for years without this, you don't need to spend money on hi-tec when you can use a fieldbook....." Just getting new uniform jackets was a major hurdle this year......

So, basiclly budget/cost, field data quality and time for forecaster data analysis, are what I see as problems with these units.

Cheers,
Halsted

[Avmapper]

You guys are all making good points. One of the main things is to make the pocket pc tools easy to use. If it takes longer to mess with it than write it in field book many people won't use it. Also there is the budget issue, Halsted is a little off though, the CAIC has 2 pocket pc's and ArcPad licenses that were given to them by the Colorado Geologic survey. I am working with them to get that stuff running nicely. A big part of it is also generational as the younger guys come in and the Old Guys Retire you will be seeing more people embracing this technology. The stuff does work well these days. I have been testing these units for 3 years in the cold and at altitude and I can collect snow and avalanche field data effectively with this technology. As far as Snowpilot goes, most people still collect hard copy and then enter it on their pc as the performance on the Palm OS sucks. Snowpro is the same way and is the industry standard for the ski business. I have developed an ArcPad application (data dictionary) that covers all the observations in the new American Snow and Avalanche Observation guidelines manual that was written by Ethan Green(new director of the CAIC) for the NAC and AAA. You can do your snow profile using an Excel application written by Dave Ream several years ago that I converted to pocket excel that also supports all the International and Swiss snow fonts for the profile. This past winter I did a field trip with students from Alaska Pacific University Snow and Avalanche class and had them collecting their observations digitally in an afternoon's time. It is easy for the 20-30 year olds to run this stuff as they have grown up with it. As they get older and have more field time they will be getting the experience in the mountains to back up their decisions and observations. Anyway the point is this technology does work the new units are rugged and can be set up a cheaply as $300-400. As the old guys retire it will start to be being used more and more.

[Buzzworthy]

You guys are all making good points. One of the main things is to make the pocket pc tools easy to use. If it takes longer to mess with it than write it in field book many people won't use it. Also there is the budget issue, Halsted is a little off though, the CAIC has 2 pocket pc's and ArcPad licenses that were given to them by the Colorado Geologic survey. I am working with them to get that stuff running nicely. A big part of it is also generational as the younger guys come in and the old guys retireyou will be seeing more people embracing this technology. The stuff does work well these days. I have been testing these units for 3 years in the cold and at altitude and I can collect snow and avalanche field data effectively with this technology. As far as Snowpilot goes, most people still collect hard copy and then enter it on their pc as the performance on the Palm OS sucks. Snowpro is the same way and is the industry standard for the ski business. I have developed and ArcPad application(data dictionary) that covers all the observations in the new American Snow and Avalanche Observation guidelines manual that was written by Ethan Green(new director of the CAIC) for the NAC and AAA. You can do your snow profile using an Excel application written by Dave Ream several years ago that I converted to pocket excel that also supports all the International and Swiss snow fonts for the profile. This past winter I did a field trip with students from Alaska Pacific University Snow and Avalanche class and had them collecting their observations digitally in an afternoon's time. It is easy for the 20-30 year olds to run this stuff as they have grow up with it they will be getting the experience in the mountains to back up their decisions. Anyway the point is this technology does work the new units are rugged and can be set up a cheaply as $300-400. As the old guys retire it will start to be being used more and more.

I like, I like.

[Hacksaw]

Halsted is a little off though, the CAIC has 2 pocket pc's and ArcPad licenses that were given to them by the Colorado Geologic survey.
........

Anyway the point is this technology does work the new units are rugged and can be set up a cheaply as $300-400. As the old guys retire it will start to be being used more and more.

FYI Doug, as far as I know only Spencer has used those units and I think they mainly have sat in the office this winter. No one seems to want to use them much.......... I wonder why?

Sure, "as the old guys retire," the new kids will pick-up on using the new gear...... But, they will still have to learn where the "old guys," have been digging and getting field ops to have any sort of continuance of data. So, they'll still have to look at our crudy old field books. And who knows, maybe they'll realize those crudy old fieldbooks worked.........

Meanwhile, you may think $300-400 per unit isn't much. But, the number of CAIC folks (15 staff plus paid observers) makes the cost a lot more. And to be honest aquiring these units is a long ways down the CAIC priority list currently. Both in terms of budget and what we'd like to see just have work for us now. There's a lot that of other stuff that needs addressing before CAIC starts using these units.....

Fieldbooks will never be fully replaced..... And that's why I'm starting design work on the next edition of my fieldbook this summer.

Halsted

[cj001f]

Both in terms of budget

You guys aren't awash in cash? Budgets be pretty slim in the avy center world.

http://www.csac.org/Bulletins/reports/funding.html

[Buzzworthy]

FYI Doug, as far as I know only Spencer has used those units and I think they mainly have sat in the office this winter. No one seems to want to use them much.......... I wonder why?

Sure, "as the old guys retire," the new kids will pick-up on using the new gear...... But, they will still have to learn where the "old guys," have been digging and getting field ops to have any sort of continuance of data. So, they'll still have to look at our crudy old field books. And who knows, maybe they'll realize those crudy old fieldbooks worked.........

Meanwhile, you may think $300-400 per unit isn't much. But, the number of CAIC folks (15 staff plus paid observers) makes the cost a lot more. And to be honest aquiring these units is a long ways down the CAIC priority list currently. Both in terms of budget and what we'd like to see just have work for us now. There's a lot that of other stuff that needs addressing before CAIC starts using these units.....

Fieldbooks will never be fully replaced..... And that's why I'm starting design work on the next edition of my fieldbook this summer.

Halsted

Field books will fully be replaced at some point Halsted, maybe not in our lifetime, but look at the history of technology.

Using this technology, you can put your files and data on a server and bring up data from all those "cruddy old field books" in a few clicks of a mouse. Effieciency is what you are failing to see is one of the main points of using technology.

Sitting units on a desk that can help with effieciency, well, that seems rather odd. You obviously do not want to open your mind to such ideas, which is understandable since you make your own fieldbook. You see this: $$$$$$$$, too many of these signs and it is pretty evident in your posts.

Will the CAIC take to this, my guess is not in my career, but many other agencies, resorts, snowmobile clubs, some forecasters will.

Sure, "as the old guys retire," the new kids will pick-up on using the new gear...... But, they will still have to learn where the "old guys," have been digging and getting field ops to have any sort of continuance of data. So, they'll still have to look at our crudy old field books. And who knows, maybe they'll realize those crudy old fieldbooks worked.........

GPS! Walk right to the area. Waalla!



We both have solutions that work. I simply think mine is better.

[Buzzworthy]

Budgets be pretty slim in the avy center world.

http://www.csac.org/Bulletins/reports/funding.html

And that is why they are a very small target as far as users at this point. This I know. I simply like debating solutions with Halsted.

Plus he has valid arguments, we both do. I'm going for the win-win situation. I'm doing this project for my love of the snow and to see if I can't help save a few lives in the process. Time to give back with the resources I have.


Worst that happens, I plant this idea in many people's heads and I fall flat on my face. But the concept is out there at least.

Best case, this works larger than my wildest dreams and in 10 years this is widespread.


I am here to do my best with what I have.

[Hacksaw]

Using this technology, you can put your files and data on a server and bring up data from all those "cruddy old field books" in a few clicks of a mouse. Effieciency is what you are failing to see is one of the main points of using technology.

Sitting units on a desk that can help with effieciency, well, that seems rather odd. You obviously do not want to open your mind to such ideas, which is understandable since you make your own fieldbook. You see this: $$$$$$$$, too many of these signs and it is pretty evident in your posts.

Will the CAIC take to this, my guess is not in my career, but many other agencies, resorts, snowmobile clubs, some forecasters will.




GPS! Walk right to the area. Waalla!



We both have solutions that work. I simply think mine is better.

Ah Buzz? Who's going to pay to have all those old snowpits and field ops put on a database? You should really talk with the forecasters about how they use "data bases." Oh... and the Westwide Network, have you used that one lately?

Closed mind? No, just a pratical approch, from someone who looks at how little money there is.... Maybe before an avalanche center pays for these hi-tec toys, maybe they should properly pay their people...

Snow Mobile clubs??? Thanks, that was a good one.... I haven't had such a good deep laugh in such a long time....

GPS.... Well, since none of us has been using it (Spencer might now and then...) you won't be able to walk right too anything..... D'oh!!!

Your right we both have solutions. I have just worked too much in the field.

Actually, the solution that will eventually happen will be that observers will carry your hi-tec units and also have a fieldbook in their jacket pocket. As the "no-fail back-up system."

Halsted

[Hacksaw]

And that is why they are a very small target as far as users at this point. This I know. I simply like debating solutions with Halsted.

Plus he has valid arguments, we both do.

[Avmapper]

Halsted it is apparent you are opposed to the idea. The old school hard copy mentality is missing that the big pictutre of the ski industry starting
to use this stuff and the Forest Service starting to require digital
data for the permitting and leasing (both for the Heliski and Snow Cat companies). Also the some of CDOT forcasters are open to this technology because they are tired of filling out field books and having to come back to the office to hand enter the data to the CDOT database so they are doing the same work twice. You definitely don't see the big picture on this and the fact that there was a lot of Snow Pilot use this last season indicates that yes people are open to this and are willing to beat it around until they get it to work. Of course you don't have too. But it is coming, whether it is widely implemented during your tenure remains to be seen but it is coming. Also some of the Forest Service Avalanche centers have the expensive Trimble GPS units that the Forest Service uses during the summer for forest surveys and fire fighting. They are looking at utilizing them in the winter. And yes I still have a field book in the bottom of my pack but haven't had to use it in a couple of years since I developed a snow and avalanche observation data dictionary that is actually more inclusive than a field book.

[Buzzworthy]

Ah Buzz? Who's going to pay to have all those old snowpits and field ops put on a database?

They pay you, to plug in a cable to your field computer from your PC, hit a few buttons and it is transferred. Done in a matter of minutes.

GPS.... Well, since none of us has been using it (Spencer might now and then...) you won't be able to walk right too anything..... D'oh!!!

Time to get with the times!

Actually, the solution that will eventually happen will be that observers will carry your hi-tec units and also have a fieldbook in their jacket pocket. As the "no-fail back-up system."

No fail back up system is in the handheld. You have to trust in your equipment. Read up on Windows Mobile 5 and then talk to me.


I did a scenario about a year ago with a company that had this same mentality and it was a forestry cruising application.

We went out in the woods, 2 on handhelds, 2 on field books, plotted our work area and put both to the test. I gave one handheld to a 60 year old man who said he hated computers. He now owns one and uses it everyday and thanked me for helping make his job easier. The ones using handhelds and software had their data downloaded to a laptop before the field book cruisers were even done taking data. I gave about one hour of instruction and sent them off and running.

Then I did it (degree in forestry, knew what I was doing) and I had data in the laptop before ANYONE had all data taken, regardless of device or book.


You know, my wife and I are getting alone even better these days as I get to argue with you and it makes her life easier. Thanks.

[Bunion 2020]

Snowpilot on a Palm is the biggest waste of a Snow Workers time since fat skis were invented.

All our pits are scribed into chicken scratch and then transcribed into Pilot on a PC in a warm dry office.

I will take a pencil and a Rite in the Rain book any day.

Maybe if I had a kid and in 30 years he was doing what I am doing, the technology will be available. For now you are pissing in the wind.

Cruising timber is a different world from plotting snow profiles.

[Buzzworthy]

For now you are pissing in the wind.

Cruising timber is a different world from plotting snow profiles.

From my view, I don't see it that way and either does my email inbox and my phone ringing. But to each his own.


As for the application, data is data. Same world, just looks different. I write 123, you write abc. Different work, same exact idea, data is data.



I guess I just can't understand (if you have the budget) of not using something to make your job easier. I messed with field books way too much in the 5 years I used them in LS/forestry. I then used a handheld and could double my effieciency.

[covert]

keep the faith buzz,

for me the most valuable resource is time and i think there are a lot of snow safety workers who are in the same boat. sounds like the CDOT guys hit the nail on the head. why should i have to record my data and then re-enter it in the computer. if a can download data from a handheld in a minute instead of spending 30min re-entering it in a computer, you're saving me hours every week that i can spend elsewhere. i think it sounds great...

[Hacksaw]

Halsted it is apparent you are opposed to the idea.

NO Doug, your not listening! I'm pointing out what the realities are at the CAIC.

You definitely don't see the big picture on....

Bullshit Doug. Your not seeing "the big picture." There are three major factors involved here. If you want these hi-tec units to be the Godsend to the avalanche world, solve these three problems:

1) There's no budget for these hi-tec units. And if there is budget, it should be spent on staff pay first.

2) the solo (repeat = SOLO) forecaster in the CAIC office will just be buried under a bunch of data (see #3), and not be able to put it to much use if at all. So, if you have lots of people with these units instantly sending in their data you'll just overwhelm the forecaster......

3) these hi-tec toys don't address the inherent spaitial variability of snowpits and the snowpack. All these hi-tec toys mean is the data comes in faster, but it doesn't mean the data is any good.

Also some of the Forest Service Avalanche centers have the expensive Trimble GPS units that the Forest Service uses during the summer for forest surveys and fire fighting. They are looking at utilizing them in the winter.

Ah Doug, maybe you don't know this... CAIC is not part of the Forest Service.

And yes I still have a field book in the bottom of my pack but haven't had to use it in a couple of years since I developed a snow and avalanche observation data dictionary that is actually more inclusive than a field book.

Doug, maybe you should spend some time looking in actual avalanche forecaster's, ski patroller's and ski guide's fieldbooks. You'll find that there's a lot more "non-avalanche related" stuff in their fieldbooks then just snowpit forms, etc.... Stuff like, pages for drawing avalanche accidents, phone logs, rescue flow-charts, temp conversion charts, daily morning guides meeting info, etc.... Maybe you should look at my website to see the "extras," that I have in my fieldbook.

The feedback I have from a lot of avalanche professionals of what they want in the next edition of my fieldbook is a lot of non-avalanche related stuff. But, if you'd rather not listen to someone who has over 3,000 field books in circulation and daily use, ok.......

You and Buzz have asked if there is a market for these units. Yes, there's a market. But, you need to meet the wants and needs of that market.
Don't just tell the market what your going to hand them, becasue you think you know better.

Halsted

[Hacksaw]

I will take a pencil and a Rite in the Rain book any day.

Maybe if I had a kid and in 30 years he was doing what I am doing, the technology will be available. For now you are pissing in the wind.

Cruising timber is a different world from plotting snow profiles.

FYI Doug and Buzz....

Bunion has been in the avalanche business a VERY long time........

Halsted