F*ck! 2 DOA, possible 2 more. Mammoth Patrol

[bad_roo]

I may be wrong. As H-wood said, I'm just a guy with pieces of info a long way away. I just don't like the sound of what I've heard. I agree that these guys are heroes but I think they were owed a little more by their employers. You wouldn't send them out to do avy control without the right training and equipment. How is this any different?

I'm not interested in making this an argument in a thread that is so tragic. Just explaining my viewpoint. Condolences to the families involved.

[kidwoo]

I may be wrong. As H-wood said, I'm just a guy with pieces of info a long way away. I just don't like the sound of what I've heard. I agree that these guys are heroes but I think they were owed a little more by their employers. You wouldn't send them out to do avy control without the right training and equipment. How is this any different?

I'm not interested in making this an argument in a thread that is so tragic. Just explaining my viewpoint. Condolences to the families involved.

Let me at least try to put this into perspective. Even on lower snow years, this vent is reduced to nothing more than a hole a little larger than a frisbee. It's on a little rise in between two fall line trails. Still part of a big open slope..... With the huge ass recent storm, it's pretty reasonable that the old markers weren't even visible when these guys went to reset it. You've seen pics of mammoth. Wide open whiteness. Trying to judge the void underneath this thing when all you can see is a little hole isn't the easiest thing to do. The fact that these guys fell around 20 feet gives you an idea of how big that void becomes.

So you've got two relatively newer patrols and one guy that's probably done this task for years....decades even. Now it's not that hard to understand how one in a group of three could not be aware of just how big this void gets and step a little too closely. Assuming they could even accurately assess where the damn thing was.

We've had permanant fixtures in this location in years past and the snow load on heavy steel and concrete destroyed them every time. Therefore putting in some sort of fence that stays visible throughout a ski season is impossible. There used to be one of those too.

So what these guys were doing was pretty much the best possible way to mark off the area up to this point. I'm sure that will change in execution but it's not like there weren't a lot of things working against them. Namely a 20' deep pit covered by a snow bridge that's pretty tough to detemine the peremiter of.

I know in the past, we've used avy probes to find the thing. I hope if they weren't doing this already, this gets implemented.


Just my 2 cents.

edit: thanks for the post bullet

[msnowmn]

""With the huge ass recent storm, it's pretty reasonable that the old markers weren't even visible when these guys went to reset it. You've seen pics of mammoth. Wide open whiteness. Trying to judge the void underneath this thing""


Not true you could see the top 12 inches of the fence around that hole.

[bad_roo]

Thank you for that info.

[Ubersheist]

Didn't know that. I always thought it was just holes caused by the fact that it's a boulder field up there. But looking at the USGS site, it appears there is only one fumarole on Mammoth Mountain. The other 4 are down in the caldera.

No. Like I posted in my last thread, there's a bunch on the mountain itself. That map is only listing the most active ones.

You might remember that the whole volcano scare started in the Mammoth Lakes area when a Forest Service worker passed out due to lack of oxygen in a cabin near Lake Mary. The CO2 that replaced the oxygen in the cabin came from a nearby fumerole. That one's not shown on the map above either.

There's definitely more then what's shown on that map.

Also, CO2 is not necessarily lethal in itself. Humans discharge it every time we take a breath. In high concentrations, it pushes out oxygen (O2). Then, it's as deadly as being trapped in avy debris since there's no oxygen to breath.

Sad times for sure, though. Something like this will leave a scar in the town for a long while, let alone with the friends and families of the deceased.

[kidwoo]

""With the huge ass recent storm, it's pretty reasonable that the old markers weren't even visible when these guys went to reset it. You've seen pics of mammoth. Wide open whiteness. Trying to judge the void underneath this thing""


Not true you could see the top 12 inches of the fence around that hole.

I'm just trying to point out what the area looks like to someone who's never seen it. Bullet's pics are obviously better and your knowledge better than my assumptions.....

So if you could see the fence, I wonder if they had actually placed it over the void previously and just got lucky or if they stepped inside of it to reset it?

So the hill was open with only a foot of the fence showing when you saw it last? That spooks me.

[ole2planker]

I had the same initial reaction bad roo had: In an industrial setting, with a known toxic gas situation, you would provide employees with training and oxygen. From the LA Times article, it appears that the resort and its employees were aware of the danger, that employees had been trained and that oxygen was provided. Something went horribly wrong in spite of everyone's best efforts.

[mountainbored]

. Something went horribly wrong in spite of everyone's best efforts.

Bottom line, don't turn it into a pissing match.

[yogachik]

James' best friends created this website in his honor:

http://jjj.etowns.net/

And Mammoth created this:

Mammoth Mountain Ski Area has established memorial funds for the three Ski Patrollers who died on April 6, 2006. Three individual funds have been established at Union Bank of Mammoth Lakes in each persons name; The Scott McAndrews Memorial Fund, The Walter Rosenthal Memorial Fund, and The James Juarez Memorial Fund.

If you wish to donate to any of the funds, you may send a check addressed to the fund of your choice to Mammoth Mountain Ski Patrol, Director, Bobby Hoyt, PO Box 24, Mammoth Lakes, CA 93546. Contributions may also be delivered directly to Union Bank, or mailed to Union Bank, PO Box 2729, Mammoth Lakes, California 93546.

[DJSapp]

I had the same initial reaction bad roo had: In an industrial setting, with a known toxic gas situation, you would provide employees with training and oxygen. From the LA Times article, it appears that the resort and its employees were aware of the danger, that employees had been trained and that oxygen was provided. Something went horribly wrong in spite of everyone's best efforts.

Roo did have the correct initial reaction. I'm in a business where I deal with toxic gases in confined spaces and the risk of trenches colasping every day. Many mistakes on the part of management and the patrollers were made. There are ways to mitigate and avoid risks. This is not the time or place to discuss them.

Again, my condolences to the families and thoughts with the rescuers.

[truth]

The Viper Room along with a yet TBA venue in the village at Mammoth
will be throwing a simultanious benefit event for the 3 dead ski
patroller's family.

As you heard they died (for us) on Mammoth Mountain yesterday. They were
personal friends of ours and have kept us safe on the Mountain for many
years.

Details to come soon I wanted to get the word out ASAP so we can get
cracking on this.

The event will be held 4-6 weeks out from now on a Sunday night.

We will get everyone we can involved and Im sure this will be of
interest to the press.

Everyone CC'd in this e mail is expected to help, be you Snow
Industry,Music Industry, Mountain , Viper Room employee or friend.

Thanks in advance.

I look forward to your responses and ideas.

We will need headlining bands, DJ's and sponsors.

please post on TGR.

Everyone please pass this out to your mailing lists.

http://www.viperroom.com

[divegirl]

The event will be held 4-6 weeks out from now on a Sunday night.

We will get everyone we can involved and Im sure this will be of
interest to the press.

Hey - I have an idea. How about someone makes sure (someone with connections...) the event at Mammoth Mountain is held the same weekend as the Mini, and on that Saturday night?

[yogachik]

That's a good idea, Divegirl - but would be separate from the event that MSP wants to throw in LA, at the Viper Room.

We could have a little fundraiser at the mini... But I don't see attendance being as high this year as it was last year (which I think was around 50, including the Mammoth Forums group). Then again, I could be wrong. I just saw a post from gincognito and I also see the PNW girls are heading down...

Splat - what's this about you needing a sauna? The complex we chose has a full spa...

[johannus]

well, as always, you all are more informed than the average joe.

speaking on behalf of the mammoth patrol, we all appreciate the ++ vibes and thoughts. all 3 of the victims were stellar individuals, friends, and comrads in arms.

memorial funds have been organized for all 3 individuals. if you'd like to contribute, please pm me for more detail.

thanks to all of the mammoth community and the folks here for the positive thoughts and support.

please... if you have questions beyond what has been disclosed in the media, email me and i will do what i can to correct any rumors.

(if any of you would like a 1/2 price voucher for the mini, i've got extras. they're good anytime, anyday. no restrictions.)

[Agent 00X]

condolences to all

[msnowmn]

Here is a link to my account of that ugly day.
http://www.mammoth-snowman.com/mammo...-accident.html

[divegirl]

The Viper Room along with a yet TBA venue in the village at Mammoth
will be throwing a simultanious benefit event for the 3 dead ski
patroller's family.

Hey Yoga - it sounds as if they're going to have an event at Mammoth Village as well......and I was just hoping it could be the same weekend as the mini! I don't know how to contact the guy putting it together, but it sounds as if he wants people with suggestions to post on TGR....

And Johannus.....I'm so sorry for your loss - and to everyone on your patrol. This is so tough for everyone...the family and friends of those who died...but it must be especially hard for you and the people who worked with these guys everyday. I'm so sorry. RIP to the three.

[yogachik]

Remembering Roo's reaction - I realized no one posted yesterdays LA Times article regarding the safety of the workplace...

Mammoth Ski Patrol Deaths Hit Swiftly
By Steve Hymon and Amanda Covarrubias, Times Staff Writers
April 8, 2006


MAMMOTH LAKES — The ski patrol had been at work since first light, inspecting Mammoth Mountain's reopened runs after a week of heavy snow and blustery winds.

By midmorning Thursday, seven of them had set to work digging out a nearly buried fence erected to keep skiers away from one of the mountain's dangerous volcanic vents.

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Suddenly, the snow beneath them gave way.

Two of the ski patrollers dropped into a 21-foot maw filled with deadly carbon dioxide fumes and landed on the ground, trapped in a deep hollow.

Their cries rose to the top for a few minutes, then stopped.

Two rescuers went in after them and were quickly overcome by fumes. Others followed. The ordeal lasted barely 20 minutes, but three members of the ski patrol were dead and seven others hospitalized.

In the wake of the deadly accident, officials on Friday were trying to determine how it could have been avoided. One issue is whether the area around the crevasse, known as a fumarole, should have been designated a hazardous confined space, which would have required Mammoth Mountain to keep rescue gear at the site, including breathing equipment and tethered ropes. Investigators from Cal-OSHA were expected to arrive today.

"This is not the first time we've been at this site," Cal-OSHA spokesman Dean Fryer said. "The first time was in 1995 when we were looking at this exact area and helping the ski area understand why it needs to be avoided. The hazards of this location are well known."

Mammoth Mountain Chief Executive Rusty Gregory said Cal-OSHA did not instruct the resort to provide additional safeguards at the site.

"I'm quite sure there are no recommendations from them on dealing with the fumarole or we would have dealt with it and they would have made sure that we did," he said.

Gregory said the hazard was well known and well marked. The site was surrounded by a four-foot tall plastic snow fence and posted with a sign reading: "Closed area. CO2 emission area. Natural toxic gas."

The snow crevasse that claimed the men is part of Mammoth Mountain's volcanic legacy. The mountain is dotted with fumaroles, which release occasional puffs of foul-smelling gases. . During most of the year, the vents are harmless because the carbon dioxide fumes they emit dissipate in the air. But in winter, the volcanic gases pool and concentrate in pockets formed beneath the snow.

Mammoth Mountain officials and geologists say the severe winter storms that have dumped a record 638 inches of snow — more than 53 feet — on the mountain are at least partly to blame for the tragedy.

But one veteran ski patroller questioned whether the resort had taken adequate precautions.

"Any area in which you put employees that has a danger or atmospheric hazard or anything like that is required to provide certain safety gear," said Mike Kelly, a San Francisco lawyer and founder of the Tahoe Backcountry Ski Patrol.

Exposure to carbon dioxide gas causes rapid breathing, an elevated heart rate, shortness of breath, unconsciousness, then death.

Gregory said the first two victims were conscious immediately after their fall. "They were asking for help, and then they were silent within two minutes," he said.

Accounts of the rescue seem to indicate that the two men were not carrying oxygen, which is usually stored on the ski patrol sleds.

Those men were identified as John Scott McAndrews, 37, and James Juarez, 35.

McAndrews, known as "Scottie" on the mountain, was a newcomer to the ski patrol and had just called his parents to tell them he had been voted "Rookie of the Year" by his team members.

Juarez was a five-year veteran. Originally from Granada Hills, the former Marine so loved his job, his father said, that he continued even after he broke his back working on the ski runs and his Swedish girlfriend — also a member of the ski patrol — died in an avalanche while off-duty earlier this year.

Gregory said it appeared that the hot gases had hollowed out the snowpack, which left the two men standing on unsupported snow. He provided this account of the tragedy:

After the two men plunged into the fumarole, their five patrol partners began digging through the snow, frantically trying to reach them.

The first patroller in, Charles Walter Rosenthal, carried a small bottle of oxygen for the fallen men, but none for himself. He was quickly overcome and died.

Patrol member Jeff Bridges then donned an oxygen mask and climbed in. He, too was overcome by fumes.

A third rescuer, Steve McCombs, hooked himself to a rope, held his breath and plunged in. He managed to pull Bridges to safety.

On Friday, Gregory recalled Rosenthal, a 25-year veteran. "Walter, more than anyone I know, was immersed in the mountains," he said. "He was a great skier, but that was secondary to him. He liked being on the front lines of Mother Nature, and that's what he lived for."

An expert in snow hydrology, Rosenthal, 58, had just received a federal grant at UC Santa Barbara to study the stability of snowpacks.

A work colleague of Rosenthal's said he thought that April 1 was to have been Rosenthal's last day patrolling the mountain and that he went back to help out after the heavy snowfall.

Bridges remained at Mammoth Lakes Hospital, suffering from oxygen deprivation and lung irritation. He was expected to be released today.

Dr. Stephen Swisher, an emergency physician at the hospital, was among the team of doctors who attended to the three who died.

"By the time of their arrival, there was nothing really that could be done," he said.

Seven patrollers were admitted, and six were kept overnight, suffering from difficulty breathing, nausea and a general feeling of weakness.

On the mountain Friday, there were few signs of the tragedy.

The parking lot at the main lodge filled up early, as it often does, and snow from recent storms was piled everywhere.

A few skiers schussed up to the extra fences that had been erected around the fumarole, looked, then went on their way. Two mountain hosts in yellow jackets were nearby to answer any questions.

Eighteen-year-old Mammoth Lakes resident Zach Jones said he had been snowboarding with friends when the accident occurred.

"It was weird," he said. "We were up there having fun and so were a lot of other people, and there were people dying."

Gregory said the resort's more than 70 ski patrol members recognize their job is dangerous. They are called upon to trigger avalanches with explosives, to rescue skiers and snowboarders in dangerous terrain, to splint broken legs and attend to head injuries. They take risks to make the mountain safe to ski.

"This is not a theme park," Gregory said.

Gregory met with the ski patrol Thursday night, hours after their colleagues died, and told them that if they did not feel ready to return to work, he was willing to close the entire mountain.

[natty dread]

sorry roo, but you're out of line.

I'd love to hear your reaction if it were a guest/skier who fell in - you'd be very vocal, probably, wondering why Ski Patrol hadn't fenced off the area.

It's true that this was a record-breaking snowfall season and no one had any experience with how the snow would settle - but they were working to make the area safe for ALL. I'm sure there will be lawsuits and lots of blame thrown but, ultimately, these guys were working to SECURE THE AREA.

Just read this thread, what a tragedy. My condolences to all who knew these men.

Yoga, I don't think roo's comment was out of line at all.

Roo never said they shouldn't have been out there making the area safe for all. He was just pointing out that it appears that adequate safety measures may not have been taken. This is not the fault of the patrollers, it is the responsibility of the employer to recognize the potential danger and provide the necessary training and equipment, as was pointed out in the article you posted above:

"But one veteran ski patroller questioned whether the resort had taken adequate precautions.

"Any area in which you put employees that has a danger or atmospheric hazard or anything like that is required to provide certain safety gear," said Mike Kelly, a San Francisco lawyer and founder of the Tahoe Backcountry Ski Patrol."

Since mammoth is a volcano and has known potentially deadly gas vents in the ski area boundary, overkill on safety when working around these vents should be the norm, even if that means roping up and having respiratory protection at the ready every time. And medical oxygen bottles/masks do not constitute adequate respiratory protection, if that is what these patrollers had to resort to.
This is not picking apart the situation in hindsight. In every work-related death or injury, it is imperative to determine how the tragic outcome could have been avoided so it doesn't happen again.