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Thread: avi # 2 baker

  1. #101
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    I still don't buy this" baker is the exception" stuff.

    Lets use a couple of analogies here:

    If I'm driving down the road, hauling ass and swilling on a fifth of Beam, would you pull me over and take away my keys and license? God help you if you did, but more likely you would call and let the proper authorities handle it.

    If Tracy in Brooklyn saw a crack head jump off the Brooklyn Bridge would she feel responsible for the body retrieval? No. Would she feel like its her fault that she didn't stop him? I would hope not.

    As for idiots that have been warned, I say fuck'em. Its not your worry.

  2. #102
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    Like i said diggler - I wouldn't do it but I can certainly understand why someone would

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
    I still don't buy this" baker is the exception" stuff.
    Perhaps some of the long time locals could chime in here?

    I personally would not try to pull somebody's pass unless I was employed to do so- however I would ensure that an employee was notified promptly and that the group was met by Patrol. It is your responsibility to bring up the discussion with unprepared touring group to offer important insight- and if necessary, report them to Patrol- without knowledge and proper gear- THEY ARE A HAZARD

    Baker Patrol monitors channel 9.11 and most people who ride the BC carry radios with them- so they are easy to contact. Baker's boundary policy is in plain view on signage at high traffic exit points on what is required to utilize the BC along with the backs of tickets. Plain and simple. It is your responsiblity as a backcountry skier/boarder to educate and inform if necessary. To prevent accidents, it is imperative in such a high usage area like Baker.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau
    but Baker is a bit of a special case.
    No, its not.



    Except if you mean that it has a safer snowpack on average than 90% of the rest of the world, then, yea its SPECIAL.

  5. #105
    bklyn is offline who guards the guardians?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
    If Tracy in Brooklyn saw a crack head jump off the Brooklyn Bridge would she feel responsible for the body retrieval? No. Would she feel like its her fault that she didn't stop him? I would hope not.
    Poor analogy. I am not a fellow crackhead or dealer.

    If I was a base jumper who launched off the bridge 2-3 times a week...

    and then I saw a kid try to copy me with a backpack, fishing line and bedsheets...

    I'd have something to say to them - if only for the purely selfish reasoning that they'll get it closed down for people who know what they're doing.

    Hey, I respect both sides of the argument so forgive me for not being able to resist playing devil's advocate.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel99
    It is your responsiblity as a backcountry skier/boarder to educate and inform if necessary.
    Absolute Bullshit.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel99
    such a high usage area like Baker.
    Huh? . . . .

  8. #108
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    Does the Baker militia clip tickets for fast and out of control skiing in area? Drunk/Stoned Skiing? Jumping on trails?

    Education is cool, stealing $30 isn't.
    Elvis has left the building

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by cj001f
    Does the Baker militia clip tickets for fast and out of control skiing in area? Drunk/Stoned Skiing? Jumping on trails?

    Education is cool, stealing $30 isn't.
    I thought being stoned at Baker was a requirement?
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  10. #110
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    aye - I have to agree about the education part. I do a lot of trail work and educating people about biking responsibly is tough. Too much and it sounds like lecturing. Cutting a ticket - Im just not so sure it will get a message into really hard heads. I'm sympathetic but I don't think I would do it but I can understand why you'd do it.

    Funny chinese character guy - I meant that I've always thought of Baker as a place where ducking ropes and getting into shit is especially easy. Now that I think a little more - most ski areas are like that so I guess i was wrong there.

  11. #111
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    LL,
    I'm all for education 100%, but to say it is my "responsibility" to educate is just wrong. Will I make comments to people or discuss concerns? Sure. But I have no right or authority to tell them to do anything. This is America and last time I checked WA was a part of it. Those people have a right to be there whether I like it or not.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
    Absolute Bullshit.
    How is that? Do you know where all the hazards are, at any given area, on any given day? So who is ultimately responsible for educating someone who continually puts other people in danger? I'm not saying you should lecture somebody- but at least start a quick conversation to remind them where they are- like... "hey, do you guys have any avy gear?" or "Hey, you know that line cliffs out into a dangerous terrain trap, right?"

    I leave any ticket pulling to resort mgmt & patrol. But if somebody is acting recklessly and placing others in danger- then yes, it's your right to tell them. And if they continue to be a concern- then notify Patrol. But I guess in your book, ignorance is bliss. Fuck it, let them continue. It's America. Maybe next time they'll drop in above me without thinking and start a slide.

    --------------------------------
    As for "It's America" - well, it is and people can do what they want- however---> Rules/Policy at Mt Baker is that without Avy Gear, etc...you are not allowed to access the backcountry. http://www.mtbaker.us see mountain policy section

    --------------------------------
    I may not agree fully with how some guys try to get their point across- but the crew at Baker is a solid group. These are good people and they do not want to see repeats of what happened at the area in '98-'99. There's some bad history there. Like Hop stated- there are usually only one or two incidents a year where you'd even need to get Patrol involved. Usually a nice, quick conversation is all that is needed to get the other party using their brain. Although not "employed" by Mt Baker, many of these guys are associated with Baker on a sponsorship level so they do have a stake in the operations of the resort and feel a responsibility to at least try and educate people before they do something that not only could endanger themselves but others. I see no harm in this.
    ----------------------------------
    but I don't want to get into a big debate- as it's been done before. This thread has kind of been diverted.

    Peace everyone!
    Last edited by Squirrel99; 11-10-2005 at 04:13 PM.

  13. #113
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    I guess I'm looking at this from a broader perspective than just Mt Baker OB. I do not go to ski areas and do my best to get away from everybody in the bc, not just the idiots. Therefore I focus on myself and my partners. I'd suggest that if you feel threatened by other people, then head the opposite direction asap.

    What I think is just as ridiculous as idiots in the bc, are the self righteous people who cannot mind their own business and think its their job to be hero and save everybody. People are going to be stupid and they are going to die. Whether its skiing, driving, on the river, etc. You cannot save someone who doesn't want to be saved. I've seen this first hand. When he died was I bummed? Yep. Did I feel like it was my fault? Absolutely not. Had he been warned? Yep, plenty.

    PS. Can someone post the WA statute that describes what level of training avy gear, etc is required to bc ski on public land? I'm interested in how you go about determining who is allowed to be there and who is not.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 粉末雪
    Except if you mean that it has a safer snowpack on average than 90% of the rest of the world, then, yea its SPECIAL.
    I'm no expert, but this strikes me as a particularly ridiculous statement. The coastal snowpack may be more predictable in terms of avalanches, but there's still a lot of snow and it does avalanche often. That doesn't seem real safe to me.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD
    I'm no expert, but this strikes me as a particularly ridiculous statement. The coastal snowpack may be more predictable in terms of avalanches, but there's still a lot of snow and it does avalanche often. That doesn't seem real safe to me.
    Hey it's only what we've come to expect from this clown.

    and to steal a line from Dr Strangelove - Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the hall of fame
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD
    I'm no expert, but this strikes me as a particularly ridiculous statement. The coastal snowpack may be more predictable in terms of avalanches, but there's still a lot of snow and it does avalanche often. That doesn't seem real safe to me.
    Wherever you have mountains and snow, you'll have avalanches. Especially during or after strom cycles. Relatively speaking, maritime snowpacks are generally more predicatable, and less susceptible to lingering, deep instabilities.
    But you already knew that.

    To characterize the Baker situation as unique because of its maritime snowpack and proximity to a bunch of yayhoos would be specious.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
    I guess I'm looking at this from a broader perspective than just Mt Baker OB. I do not go to ski areas and do my best to get away from everybody in the bc, not just the idiots. Therefore I focus on myself and my partners. I'd suggest that if you feel threatened by other people, then head the opposite direction asap.

    What I think is just as ridiculous as idiots in the bc, are the self righteous people who cannot mind their own business and think its their job to be hero and save everybody. People are going to be stupid and they are going to die. Whether its skiing, driving, on the river, etc. You cannot save someone who doesn't want to be saved. I've seen this first hand. When he died was I bummed? Yep. Did I feel like it was my fault? Absolutely not. Had he been warned? Yep, plenty.

    PS. Can someone post the WA statute that describes what level of training avy gear, etc is required to bc ski on public land? I'm interested in how you go about determining who is allowed to be there and who is not.
    As I said before, I'm not out there to pull passes, I'm out there to go skiing. I like accessing the BC from the ski area. People that access the BC from the ski area are required to have all their stuff (see the official policy that Squirrel posted) or their lift privileges will be revoked. The mtn. does not want to close the boundaries, but I bet they would if there were too many accidents attributed to accessing the BC. I don't want this to happen, therefore I try to talk to people that might end up putting BC access from the ski area in danger. If I save their life, great. If I save my life, great too.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel99

    from Website- and also listed on all tickets & trail maps/signs:
    MT. BAKER SKI AREA BACKCOUNTRY POLICY
    If you leave the ski area boundary into the backcountry or re-enter the ski area from the backcountry, you must have all of the following or you will lose your ski area privileges:

    1. Avalanche transceiver and demonstrated ability to use it
    2. A partner
    3. Shovel
    4. Knowledge of the terrain and your ability.
    5. Avalanche knowledge
    6. Knowledge of local avalanche conditions;
    • know this winter’s snowpack layers
    • know the recent snowfall & type
    • know current NW Avalanche Center forecast
    • know today’s weather forecast (snowfall, temperature & visibility)
    Probes and Handi-com radios are recommended.

    VIOLATORS WILL BE EXPELLED FROM THE SKI AREA.
    Wish The Canyons would adopt this type of policy.

    Hop - thanks for clarifying the whole clipping of the passes thing. (sorry it opened a can of worms). I just assumed that since Grant was talking about clipping passes that he had a side gig as a patroller.
    "In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, — no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair." -Emerson

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by powstash
    Wish The Canyons would adopt this type of policy.

    Hop - thanks for clarifying the whole clipping of the passes thing. (sorry it opened a can of worms). I just assumed that since Grant was talking about clipping passes that he had a side gig as a patroller.
    Access to the Elbow is a very touchy subject between the Howatts and the Forest Service. As its been told to me, technically the terrain is "in-bounds", and must be patrolled, bombed, etc. Thus, they are super liable if anybody dies. The Arm on the other hand is something else -- national park or wilderness area or something like that. They can attempt to restrict access thru their ski area, but they are much less liable for death or injury out there.

    Essentially, it's only a matter of time before some retard dies out on the Elbow, Baker gets sued, and has to close the terrain. As a result, the owners and mountain managers have told mbs, hop, myself, and others that it is perfectly okay for us to pull passes out on the Elbow. Most of us never do. Baker is "unique" in that we drink, party, ski, and socialize with the owners and mountain manager outside of the ski world. We have their home numbers, etc...
    OOOOOOOHHHH, I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by hop
    As I said before, I'm not out there to pull passes, I'm out there to go skiing. I like accessing the BC from the ski area. People that access the BC from the ski area are required to have all their stuff (see the official policy that Squirrel posted) or their lift privileges will be revoked. The mtn. does not want to close the boundaries, but I bet they would if there were too many accidents attributed to accessing the BC. I don't want this to happen, therefore I try to talk to people that might end up putting BC access from the ski area in danger. If I save their life, great. If I save my life, great too.
    Good explanation Hop and I understand your point. I still think that clipping peoples passes and busting peoples balls once in the bc to be wrong. If you want to handle it, handle it at the access gates in and out. I'm just not into the in your face " We'd kick your ass and clip your pass " vibe that some of the Baker crew has been conveying in several recent avy discussions. Offering suggestions is one thing but being a jerk is just wrong. And with the skills you guys obviously have, getting away from dangerous users shouldn't be an issue.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BakerBoy
    As a result, the owners and mountain managers have told mbs, hop, myself, and others that it is perfectly okay for us to pull passes out on the Elbow. Most of us never do. .
    "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."


    I'm headin' to Baker! This should be entertaining.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 粉末雪
    "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."


    I'm headin' to Baker! This should be entertaining.
    Now I'm confused. What exactly was stupid about that comment? And if it's in regards to me, well, the kettle calling the pot black or however that saying goes.

    Let us know when you get here. mbs will threaten to kick your ass (usually the only ass that gets kicked is his own, by his woahman), and hop and myself will be happy to show you around. Do you even ski?
    OOOOOOOHHHH, I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BakerBoy
    Do you even ski?
    No, I tele.

    Could I get deputized too, and ride with the posse to hunt down the bad guys?


    Anyways, all kidding aside, thanks for the offer, I'll get in touch when in the area. Maybe I can return the favor. And if mbs is threatening to kick my ass, then I must be doing something right.
    Last edited by 粉末雪; 11-10-2005 at 09:28 PM.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
    Good explanation Hop and I understand your point. I still think that clipping peoples passes and busting peoples balls once in the bc to be wrong. If you want to handle it, handle it at the access gates in and out. I'm just not into the in your face " We'd kick your ass and clip your pass " vibe that some of the Baker crew has been conveying in several recent avy discussions. Offering suggestions is one thing but being a jerk is just wrong. And with the skills you guys obviously have, getting away from dangerous users shouldn't be an issue.
    Good point, and one I forgot to mention. I normally only approach people at the access points and have never chased anyone down to confront them, unlike others that don't post here.
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  25. #125
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    In other news, I think it is pretty interesting (tude vibe aside) that such a strong culture of peer enforcement for safety would exist.
    "It is not the result that counts! It is not the result but the spirit! Not what - but how. Not what has been attained - but at what price.
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