Second/Vacation Homes

[singlecross]

Those heli bros moving in next door to you?



… but in life the things we own can end up owning us.

Haven’t heard anything more about the Heli bros. Time will tell.

Our plan is to keep things small and simple… 400sq ft and simple 12v off grid systems.

Small camp = Big fun.
Big house = Big headache.

I like Bunion’s idea of a stable drive-in campsite with a small shed or a tiny house on a trailer and is probably what I would do/build if I were out West.

[whipski]

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Reader's Digest Version: not a burden at all (for me)

My mother had her own business from 1979 to 2023. We knew she did well but my family is one of those that does not share personal information; so we didn't really know how well. Anyway, about 13 years ago, my sister called me and asked, "Where are you going to buy a ski house?" I had no idea what she was talking about. Apparently, my mother was buying vacation homes for us kids. She had already bought one for my brother (who is/was wealthy) and my sister was in the process of buying (with my mother's money). I tried to play it cool with my mom and she finally said she wanted me to find a ski house to buy. I told her I couldn't afford one (we had already put 3 kids thru college and one was still in school). She gave me a look that said, you know the deal, stop fucking around. The only constraint was she had to get a key to the house.

She lives in NH; we were in the Albany area. My brother and sister were also in NH and bought houses in Waterville Valley; 45 minutes from my mom's house on Lake Winnisquam. I told her we would be buying in SoVT so we didn't have to drive too far to use it. She was good with that because she missed VT (we were all born and raised to some level in VT). We ended up buying at the base of Magic Mountain; at the time, Magic was in dire financial straits and always in danger of returning to the NELSAP roles (it was closed from 1996-2000) but I was (still am) in love with the terrain and people that frequented the area. We found a FSBO with a view of the ski area. It was a Lindal cedar post and beam and was finished inside in T&G clear pine. 8 minute walk to the lifts. I was in love. Called the guy that night and closed 2 weeks later. 1,300sf, 3br, 2ba home that needed some updating but was turnkey. And the price was right because the previous owner was convinced that the ski area was going to close again. It didn't....

That was 12 years ago. While I was still working, we spent virtually every weekend here. It was 80 minutes from our house in Saratoga Springs. Then, we moved to Burlington and the commute was now 2+20 but still manageable and we spent every weekend here. I retired 3 years ago. My full-time house is now in NH and is only 70 minutes from the Magic house. We spend Easter to Thanksgiving on a lake in NH and Thanksgiving to Easter at the base of the best ski area in SoVT.

Both places are so awesome that I don't look at the upkeep as a burden at all. While many working stiffs think they will ski every day when they retire, I can tell you that there are many days you do not want to be out there. So I do little jobs on those day and the place just keeps humming along. My summer days are filled with cycling, kayaking, sailing, swimming, hiking and I still have plenty of time for upkeep. I come over to Vermont once a week to check in with our neighbors and mow the lawn.

We've never considered renting out any of our places. We're fortunate that we don't have to. Like most other places, our VT community hates STRs and we have a neighbor that we've never seen (they bought the house sight unseen during COVID) that rents out their house every weekend to what seem to be frat reunions. They leave food and trash everywhere that the bears love but not the human residents. And they're loud. All night.

The key for us has been easy accessibility. If it's a burden to get to, you won't use it as much and then it starts to feel like an anchor.

We were fortunate in that we didn't have to get a mortgage to buy it so there's really very little financial consideration. Our town actually used to give 2nd homeowners a break on school taxes since we weren't using the school but the STR issue has changed that. Our taxes went up significantly this year but are still reasonable (I used to live in NY so they seem very reasonable to me).

My kids all stopped skiing when they went to college (I went to college to ski...) so they don't come visit too often. But someday, it will be theirs and my guess is, they'll sell it immediately since they didn't spend much time here. They have no connection but we have lifelong friends in our immediate neighbors and really feel as, or more, comfortable here as in our main home.

View from our deck in VT


View from our deck in NH (dock had to come out early this year)


I am one lucky SOB.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I guess it all depends on where you live, where the second place is and how you came about the place.

My partner has a cabin at Lake Wenatchee and I live in Wenatchee. Her cabin was built by her great grandfather in 1925. It had a remodel in the mid 50s. It’s 18x16 with a great fireplace, nice pine paneling and mid century fixtures. It’s seasonally dry and is not insulated. It’s got basic plumbing for summer, kitchen and bathroom sinks and a toilet. The toilet is served by a two ring system. In addition there’s an outhouse. There’s not a lot of maintenance other than yearly brushing and that’s only a couple days work.

Between our main residence and the cabin we don’t really feel the need to travel. The cabin is 45 minutes away. It is something we do and we have plans to do some more in retirement. Because of where we live and the things we like to do I sometimes feel guilty leaving here.




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[singlesline]

Between our main residence and the cabin we don’t really feel the need to travel. The cabin is 45 minutes away. It is something we do and we have plans to do some more in retirement. Because of where we live and the things we like to do I sometimes feel guilty leaving here.

It certainly does come at the expense of other travel.

My family travel as a kid was basically:
Summer: go to the cottage
Christmas: visit the out of town grandparents every other year or so
Winter/Spring Break: ski trips

There were no big national parks road trips and I've still never seen the Grand Canyon. We did Disney World once and went to Denmark (overlapping with a relative's wedding)...but that's about all I can remember doing as a full family.

I don't regret it though. Loved every minute of it. Have gotten to do plenty of my own travel since then which I probably appreciated more.

[skaredshtles]

<snip> I've still never seen the Grand Canyon.

Wife and I are leaving this afternoon for a backpacking trip into the Big Ditch. You should do yourself a favor and get yer ass down there to see it. It's simply spectacular.

[Grange]

My parents bought land and we built the cottage on it when I was a kid. We had the hole dug and a basic driveway installed and we did everything else ourselves from pouring the footings to putting on the roof. The only other thing we didn't do was the plumbing and septic system since that had to be done by a licensed plumbing contractor.

I spent most of my summer between 8th and 9th grade up north getting the cottage to the point where it was fully enclosed and had the fireplace ready for heat. Over the next several years we continually worked on finishing the cottage as funds came available. When the place was finally finished 100% we started adding some extras like a wrap around deck. We also built a large garage.

I think this was the only way my parents could have afforded to have a second home and not be in debt. It certainly helped that my father was a journeyman cement mason and journeyman carpenter and their best friend was a electrician, but I still consider this quite a feet considering my father's laborers were three kids under 15 and a wife that had no construction experience. Setting the rafter's and trusses ourselves with no crane is a memory I won't forget.

My folks have now moved up there permanently since their retirement, put on a big addition, and updated the original place significantly.

This place is very special to me and as much as I enjoy going on vacation to places like Europe and Alaska some of my best vacations have been spending a week at the cottage with my dogs chasing birds in the fall. I am planning on financial aspects of keeping this place and the maintenance costs.

[frorider]

As a Gen Xer with most of my friends in their 30s and 40s, I’ve seen a generational change in attitude on this topic. Warning: anecdata ahead

When I was a 22 yr old dirtbag, the idea/dream of a small vacation home with a ski resort and mtb/bc skiing options was very appealing. In fact I remember half-heartedly condo shopping in Mammoth in my 30s when that shit was affordable & HOA fees weren’t insane.

But it’s a different world. You may have heard of Ikon passes, climate change, wildfires etc. Nowadays it seems a 30 yr old with a decent job prioritizes getting a decent all-season van or camper so they can travel to where the skiing or biking is good. Snow forecast apps, wildfire smoke predictions, a network of friends in BC or UT or wherever seems to be the norm. And a Starlink.

But maybe The lake cottage or ski resort A-Frame dream is relevant to a 30 yr old planning to have kids. Seems (to me) that having a fixed vacation/weekend location is nice if you have all the crap you need already there. Even if it’s raining on a 2 ft base.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It certainly does come at the expense of other travel.

My family travel as a kid was basically:
Summer: go to the cottage
Christmas: visit the out of town grandparents every other year or so
Winter/Spring Break: ski trips

There were no big national parks road trips and I've still never seen the Grand Canyon. We did Disney World once and went to Denmark (overlapping with a relative's wedding)...but that's about all I can remember doing as a full family.

I don't regret it though. Loved every minute of it. Have gotten to do plenty of my own travel since then which I probably appreciated more.

Don’t get me wrong about travel, I love seeing new places. It’s just that where we live there is a lifetime of outdoor exploration to be had. Ski touring, lift served skiing, hiking, backpacking, climbing, white water, all types of cycling. Alpine, montane and desert all less than an hour away. Between the house in town and the cabin we can find novel outdoor experiences with little to no driving.

If I had to travel a long ways to get to the cabin and get to where I want to recreate I wouldn’t want a second place. I would probably travel to more exotic locations.

I love the simplicity of a real cabin not some mini mansion with all the luxuries. It’s a big step up from car camping but is quite comfortable.


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[Name Redacted]

I think a tiny home w/ AC in the desert would suffice for me, my wife and dog. No yard to take care of. Definitely a shed or garage though. Almost bought a townhome in Moab a while back but changed our minds.

Honestly, having a camper is far better for what I want to do though.

[Danno]

Wife and I are leaving this afternoon for a backpacking trip into the Big Ditch. You should do yourself a favor and get yer ass down there to see it. It's simply spectacular.

I've done it 3 times, it's insanely magical. Have fun!

[skaredshtles]

I've done it 3 times, it's insanely magical. Have fun!

This will be my 3rd trip in and the wife's 1st. She's been several times to the Canyon but never more than a couple hours below the rim. She's been waiting to do this trip for almost 30 years.

[Bronco]

TGR Forums

Thanks for reminding me to sweep our cabin's stove pipe this weekend!

[singlesline]

As a Gen Xer with most of my friends in their 30s and 40s, I’ve seen a generational change in attitude on this topic. Warning: anecdata ahead

When I was a 22 yr old dirtbag, the idea/dream of a small vacation home with a ski resort and mtb/bc skiing options was very appealing. In fact I remember half-heartedly condo shopping in Mammoth in my 30s when that shit was affordable & HOA fees weren’t insane.

But it’s a different world. You may have heard of Ikon passes, climate change, wildfires etc. Nowadays it seems a 30 yr old with a decent job prioritizes getting a decent all-season van or camper so they can travel to where the skiing or biking is good. Snow forecast apps, wildfire smoke predictions, a network of friends in BC or UT or wherever seems to be the norm. And a Starlink.

But maybe The lake cottage or ski resort A-Frame dream is relevant to a 30 yr old planning to have kids. Seems (to me) that having a fixed vacation/weekend location is nice if you have all the crap you need already there. Even if it’s raining on a 2 ft base.

I think remote work has an interesting effect that can both ways.

On one hand, fully remote work means you don't really need to have a vacation home--just live where you want. Although many people are being called back to the office and if you have kids and a spouse in the mix it isn't always as clear. I certainly wouldn't want to raise/school my kid where my family's cottage was (and maybe you also want access to other stuff that your main home has)

On the other hand, the expansion in the ability to DO remote work makes it so you can potentially spend significantly more time at a cabin and do more extended stays. Maybe you have a desk job where you nominally have to live near the office/be hybrid...but most bosses aren't really gonna care if during the summer or school breaks you spend a lot of time working from your vacation home (probably because the bosses are doing the same thing from their much nicer vacation home).

Although that also shifts what it means to be a vacation home. Do you want to bring work energy into the place? Or have it be an escape where you don't even have internet/TV (although odds are good you'll have cell service these days)?

[Dromond]

I feel like I'm reading a lot of boomer stories from people who inherited properties or bought them on the cheap pre-covid. If you are buying a second home in the PNW these days, you are doing something for the second time that a huge amount of people will never able to do for the first time. The numbers do not work like they used to. We have good incomes, and the cost would be exorbitant to us. Even remote acreage is expensive for what it is. The covid price spikes in the west totally killed any of these dreams for me. Maybe some day!

[PNWbrit]

Owned our cabin near Crystal with another couple for ~20 years.

Bought it for a steal as a possible tear down and at the very least a top to bottom renovation. We ended up keeping the structure, doing almost all the work ourselves. Thoughts of breaking off some of the buildable acreage never got followed through on but we probably should've or should think about again.

The first 13/15 years or so we rented it sporadically. Mostly used it ourselves. Since then it has rented heavily (most notably these days summer business is incredible) and our use has become less frequent although still special to us.

The occasional big $ repair items can be a pain and we had a huge storm clean up bill when we lost a lot of trees on the property. But nowadays it's absolutely a cash cow and those are easily covered.

Overall we absolutely don't regret it, despite the occasional moments when we might have.

Prices in that market are now ridiculous. It wouldn't be a consideration to buy up there now.

Having good local handyman, a network of referrals for more specialized repairs and great cleaner are key to minimizing the headaches.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

I feel like I'm reading a lot of boomer stories from people who inherited properties or bought them on the cheap pre-covid. If you are buying a second home in the PNW these days, you are doing something for the second time that a huge amount of people will never able to do for the first time. The numbers do not work like they used to. We have good incomes, and the cost would be exorbitant to us. Even remote acreage is expensive for what it is. The covid price spikes in the west totally killed any of these dreams for me. Maybe some day!

You're not wrong. In our case, we were lucky (or ready to be lucky when the opportunity presented itself). We have 2 homes that we paid less than $500K (for both) that would easily bring $1.4M (for both) if we were selling now. I absolutely could not afford either house if I was buying it today.

As a real masochist, I was looking into buying a 3rd house in Driggs. You can get a 1 acre lot with direct views of the Grand for under $100K. I was hoping to be able to build a simple 1,500 sq ft, 3BR, 2 BA house with big windows facing east but the building costs out there are now north of $400/sq ft. No, I have no desire to STR any of my homes but I fucking love skiing at GT and could see spending 3 months in the winter and 2 months in the summer out there. Not going to happen though.

When I was growing up, we were pretty poor (my dad could never afford lift tix for us so we would walk up and ski down) and never went on vacations. With the 2 homes we have, I feel like I'm on vacation all the time. I lived in Yurp for 4 years when I was in the Army and skied well over 100 days back then. I love Austria and want to go back but a week or 10 days wouldn't do it for me. I love to travel but don't feel like I'm missing out by not traveling.

[Doremite]

Even 10 years seems like ages ago with regard to housing affordability. Isn’t there a real estate crash thread around here? Joking aside, if you’re fortunate enough to buy and hold, real estate can be a serious wealth builder. X2 for most of us fortunate to have more than one housing asset (or equity in). The 20% down is such a nut shot for so many, especially in todays market. Love to see that give. Property tax breaks (time limited) for first time home buyers.

[Dromond]

You can get a 1 acre lot with direct views of the Grand for under $100K.

That seems shockingly cheap to me given today's reality.

Even 10 years seems like ages ago with regard to housing affordability. Isn’t there a real estate crash thread around here? Joking aside, if you’re fortunate enough to buy and hold, real estate can be a serious wealth builder. X2 for most of us fortunate to have more than one housing asset (or equity in). The 20% down is such a nut shot for so many, especially in todays market. Love to see that give. Property tax breaks (time limited) for first time home buyers.

It certainly has been a great wealth builder for many, but if we see anything like the amount of grown in value that has already occurred, then future affordability will be more dire. I think it is hard to guarantee that magic trick being reliable in the near future. Prices doubling in 10 years is crazy, which has happened in some of the desirable rural areas.

That said, owning a second home to use a minority of the year is an insane luxury, and I can't really feel bad for myself or anyone else for not being able to afford that. If you have one, enjoy it.

[Doremite]

There are about 6,500,000 second homes in the US. About 650,000 homeless people. Not sure this really matters but interesting how many people can own more than 2 homes and we still can’t pull together basic services.

[Cisco Kid]

I suspect that in certain tax brackets by using certain tax strategies and with leverage of owning house 1, that a 2nd home is a better deal than the 1st net worth wise. 3rd and 4th homes even more so.
I don't own a home so I could be wrong.

[old goat]

To stress something I implied before--a second house makes a lot more sense for people with kids. I couldn't see doing it solo or with only a partner as a working age person. With the kids gone it still makes sense for us until we can't handle the work any more.

Regarding the last several posts--I understand how incredibly lucky we are to have this place, how lucky we are in a lot of ways, and how selfish we are to have this place. Being thankful for our blessings (not in a religious sense) doesn't put a roof over a homeless head I know, but it's the best I can manage.

[Mazderati]

Thoughts and prayers.

[Buster Highmen]

Yeah, let me iterate, I'm beyond cosmodigilogically lucky. I get it. I'm just a schmuck who stumbled into the place. It could have or should have been someone else.

[nickwm21]

Yeah….

[emoji638]nd homes…

Similar to the single earner households - it will go down as a phenomenon of the Boomers and Gen X. Similar to generations before the boomers; it will be reserved to the very few for millennials, gen z, and beyond…


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