Second/Vacation Homes

[AdironRider]

I sort of struggle with this idea of second homes suddenly being unachievable. Not necessarily with the fact that people think they are expensive per se, but rather with the notion that they weren't expensive either back in the 70s as if everyone had one. That was never the case.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

^ Maybe, maybe not...

1 BR condo in the "dorm" at Magic was selling for $38K in 2014. That was achievable for just about anyone that really wanted to have it. Nowadays, that condo is selling for north of $150K. Less achievable but still within reach. My next door neighbors paid $42K for a 3 BR/2BA "chalet" in the village at Magic in 2001. I paid more than that for a Chevy Suburban in 2001. They did a $200K renovation in 2017 and current market would easily bring $475K for their place.

[muted reborn]

I sort of struggle with this idea of second homes suddenly being unachievable. Not necessarily with the fact that people think they are expensive per se, but rather with the notion that they weren't expensive either back in the 70s as if everyone had one. That was never the case.

"Never the case" for you and your location, sure. It was fairly common for city people in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan to have a cabin "Up North" and they were probably dirt cheap in the 70's -80's. I'd guess it would be easy to buy one at $25k - 'guess' being the key word. We had one, guessing it was around $35-50k, it's now torn done with three houses built in the 2000's replacing our one house. That's when shit got unaffordable IMO. In our case - guessing here - local town of West Bend grew bigly nearby and people needed more first homes.

That said, I'd like to read why so many people bought Up North decades ago, what prices really were, and how many people still have these second homes, which I'm sure are quite prevalent.

[plugboots]

Well. It can be done. Was it really ever that easy to own a place a half an hour drive from the tram at Jackson? Kinda. Probably back before you could fly directly into Jackson Hole. And yes, I remember that.
If you really want a place within a two hour drive, (let’s say), from your primary residence, you just have to be a little more creative, and open to see the future.
People in these second home locations are constantly whining about the good old days and “The way it used to be”

well no shit

[AdironRider]

Two points. In 2014 Magic was an inch away from being tits up and pretty much everyone thought paying 40k for an old condo at a bankrupt ski area was a fools errand. 9 times out of 10 it would have been.

And in terms of buying a place up North, that still exists in plenty of places. I can buy a cabin in Maine right now for between 1-200k, which is the equivalent, or even cheaper comparatively, to 50k in the 70's when minimum wage was 2 bucks an hour.

I really think this is more of a cultural change where an off grid cabin or basic one room place in the woods is not what people are willing to buy or want. I don't want to shortchange that a second home isn't expensive, I just think it is has always been a thing for people of means and not something that was a middle class staple.

[plugboots]

^^^ My dad worked for Signode and I’m sure those boss dudes were like…”you’re gonna get your one week vacation a year and you’re gonna spend it canoeing in the BWCA, (cause like that’s basically all he could afford), and you’re gonna like it.”

[m2711c]

Two points. In 2014 Magic was an inch away from being tits up and pretty much everyone thought paying 40k for an old condo at a bankrupt ski area was a fools errand. 9 times out of 10 it would have been.

And in terms of buying a place up North, that still exists in plenty of places. I can buy a cabin in Maine right now for between 1-200k, which is the equivalent, or even cheaper comparatively, to 50k in the 70's when minimum wage was 2 bucks an hour.

I really think this is more of a cultural change where an off grid cabin or basic one room place in the woods is not what people are willing to buy or want. I don't want to shortchange that a second home isn't expensive, I just think it is has always been a thing for people of means and not something that was a middle class staple.

i rarely agree with anything you say, but you're spot on with this...

jackson was cheep back in the day cause no one really knew about it and there was still plenty of room for sale. when the land sold out, the prices went up.

and vermont resort property has always been a roller coaster... when i lived in the village gate in the early 90's the condo that i was renting cost my landlord above $200,000 but at the time the condos were selling for around $35,000 with three on the bottom floor selling for $24,000. (still kicking myself over passing on that deal) those condo are now selling for $225,000 again.


https://www.zillow.com/b/village-gate-warren-vt-65hSH2/


timing is just as important as location.

excellent deals to be had on maine cabins right now...


fact.

[babybear]

You guys need to watch Maine Cabin Masters for people who enjoy the hell out of inexpensive cabins.
https://mainecabinmasters.com

Anyone else who has watched it also probably read the title in their head with that wicked Maine accent [emoji38]

[Buster Highmen]

In MN, MI and WI there's much more of a cabin culture in the 60s and 70s, largely because of supply of lakes and rivers and cool places. That's likely still the case, augmented by a drop in demand due to the loss of industrial jobs across the midwest. BITD there, everyone had a lake place, even delivery truck drivers. The financial gradient wasn't steep there then.

In the West where infrastructure is more sparse, there aren't as many resources for lake places and competition for a spot in mountain towns has gone through the post covid roof. The financial gradient is much steeper in the West, particularly at destination resorts and coastal areas. The Gini index proves that the distribution of wealth now is much less than it was up until about 1975 all across the USA. The rich did get richer.

It is still possible to score a little spot, but it's at a more out of the way place where maybe there's less snow, smaller vertical drop and less watercooler bragging rights. But yes they are out there.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Two points. In 2014 Magic was an inch away from being tits up and pretty much everyone thought paying 40k for an old condo at a bankrupt ski area was a fools errand. 9 times out of 10 it would have been.

More like a centimeter but some people kept the faith and it paid off for them. Even if Magic closed, being 10 minutes from Bromley, 20 minutes from Stratton, 25 minutes from Okemo, 40 minutes from Mt. Snow and 55 minutes from Killington made it a deal.

I remember when you could get a condo at Sugarbush for $25K (late 80s/early 90s). Still kicking myself for not going for it. I mean, a 30-year mortgage on $25K is is under $200 at an 8% mortgage rate. If I had done it, I could be neighbors with Vt-f...

[Flounder]

You guys need to watch Maine Cabin Masters for people who enjoy the hell out of inexpensive cabins.

Well after their Italian villa purchase and reno special, the missus now wants a 2nd home in Italy.

A second home is in our future. Not a vacation home because we will be retired and on permanent vacation. Our retirement plan includes not working at 60 and enough money stashed to buy land and build. I love design and construction so I’m looking forward to it. We will keep our current house in Burlington, it’s convenient, close to the lake, and will be paid off.

Vacation home will be done with an eye towards investment and low maintenance and operating costs. Figure we can enjoy for at least 20 years and get some appreciation when we sell to move into senior living. Being a new build should eliminate any major maintenance while we are enjoying it. No kids so no need to pass anything down. I’d even be willing to sell quickly if the profit is there and repeat. I’ve got several designs I want to explore from an inexpensive chalet to a modern 28 foot cube house. All depends on the land we find.

[easyrdr]

My parents bought their cabin on the lake in northern Michigan in the 80's. Paid around $225k for it. That was a lot of money then. They bought it because it was next door to the 5 generation family cabin. Prices steadily climbed over the years. By the early 2000's lake affordability started to go to shit. You could still find deals every so often but they were much harder to come by. My wife and I bought on the lake in 2012, we paid $690k for the house, our property taxes when we bought it was $7000/year. The difference was it wasn't a vacation home for us it was our primary residence. We were one of 4 households on our road that were locals, the rest were second home owners. From 2012 on shit got nuts, then COVID hit and it got worse. The cidiots came in droves and prices went through the roof. The house we bought in 2012 for $690k sold in 2022 for $3.5. The guy that owns it now pays 60K in property taxes per year. While it would appear we won the lottery I can say there is nothing fun about being priced out of your home. We were working harder and harder just to cover the taxes. Add in two kids off to college and a third one headed that direction and it no longer made sense to try. We sold it, made it two years with no lake and had a full family freak out, so went back to the drawing board in search of the affordable lake house, which has landed us in Northern Wisconsin. They got a fuck ton of lakes and a fuck ton of cheap cabins. Not sure about the rest as I haven't spent a whole lot of time there but we bought a nice little cabin on a lake in the woods, just closed on it a few weeks ago. Going to rent it a bunch to get it paid down using it when we can, as we get more time there rent it less and less with the goal of not renting it at all. There are still affordable places and ways to make it happen, just a lot more work and effort than it used to be.

[XXX-er]

[QUOTE=easyrdr;7134242 The guy that owns it now pays 60K in property taxes per year. While it would appear we won the lottery I can say there is nothing fun about being priced out of your home. We were working harder and harder just to cover the taxes. .[/QUOTE]

The taxes going too high to afford on a second property , apparently from earilier posts in this thread ^^ I'm sorry but that sounds like horse shit

edit: actualy a bunch or horseshit


Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
These " cabins " have gone WAY up in value so the taxes are thru the roof, my buddy from colorado said sure its nice but the taxes are 35K
$35K per year in property taxes? This sounds like a bunch of horseshit.

[easyrdr]

I guess I should clarify, this was our primary home, surrounded by secondary homes. Michigan taxes differently for one or the other. The dude pays $60k a year due to it not being his primary (non homestead). Second home ownership would not be an option for us at all there. Primary ownership puts our taxes at $25k to $30k a year. No bullshit. That is Michigan.

[XXX-er]

well obviousy i'm just yanking someone's chain here

unaffordable taxes cuz housing prices went thru the roof are unaffordable taxes no matter where they are

[riser4]

My parents bought their cabin on the lake in northern Michigan in the 80's. Paid around $225k for it. That was a lot of money then. They bought it because it was next door to the 5 generation family cabin. Prices steadily climbed over the years. By the early 2000's lake affordability started to go to shit. You could still find deals every so often but they were much harder to come by. My wife and I bought on the lake in 2012, we paid $690k for the house, our property taxes when we bought it was $7000/year. The difference was it wasn't a vacation home for us it was our primary residence. We were one of 4 households on our road that were locals, the rest were second home owners. From 2012 on shit got nuts, then COVID hit and it got worse. The cidiots came in droves and prices went through the roof. The house we bought in 2012 for $690k sold in 2022 for $3.5. The guy that owns it now pays 60K in property taxes per year. While it would appear we won the lottery I can say there is nothing fun about being priced out of your home. We were working harder and harder just to cover the taxes. Add in two kids off to college and a third one headed that direction and it no longer made sense to try. We sold it, made it two years with no lake and had a full family freak out, so went back to the drawing board in search of the affordable lake house, which has landed us in Northern Wisconsin. They got a fuck ton of lakes and a fuck ton of cheap cabins. Not sure about the rest as I haven't spent a whole lot of time there but we bought a nice little cabin on a lake in the woods, just closed on it a few weeks ago. Going to rent it a bunch to get it paid down using it when we can, as we get more time there rent it less and less with the goal of not renting it at all. There are still affordable places and ways to make it happen, just a lot more work and effort than it used to be.

Have you considered fractional ownership of an Island?

[Harry]

Fuck you, I’m not selling a fraction of my island.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[easyrdr]

C'mon Harry, I'd be a good neighbor..............and I got a boat!

[XXX-er]

except upstate Newyork

but nobody knows where that is

[ncskier]

The 2nd home question is more and more complex since the cost of purchase and upkeep has gone up and up. I own a second place at a forgotten area in the SC low country and I am glad I bought pre-covid. I also own land along the coast pre-covid. Watching the 2nd hurricane roll in always has me rethinking plans, but the old timers knew, hence they built what would now be called shacks. The would flood, lean a little, wash out, but you'd show up, use a pulley and some fans and just fish and enjoy them again. Now with mega mansions dotting the coast, its all about semi permanence in an area mother nature wants back.
You guys dump on the South and Appalachia, but those hills washed out in Helene are filled with $5-10M second homes of wealthy folks from all over. Its not just in the West nearly all cool spots along the coast and southern trout streams have been jacked up beyond normal prices. Yet here we are.
Even rural land is way beyond. Someone mentioned "normal" people having 2nd homes and the truth is, that it was obtainable to stake a claim at least even if it was a cabin or just rural acreage with a camper. That ship has sailed unfortunately.

[XXX-er]

up narth they used to build the second homes, the inuit called them iglu and they would melt away

[Core Shot]

Yeah, well I’m a fucking maniac

https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Family.../dp/141331841X

Halfway through the book.
As a retired dentist I skimmed through the dentistry.
But as a third or fourth generational owner of a lake property I must say this is a good read. I’ve been more concerned about fighting with my brother about expenses once my mom passes on. But suits of partition are real. And families don’t always agree.

Reading this inspired me to get my bro to go LLC with a fair operating agreement. It’s a three way ownership with him and my mom. Soon to be just he and I in a decade or whatever. But shit gets complicated. I’d like to think his kids and my kids can enjoy the same memories. And grand kids and so on.

Maybe that’s a separate thread. But the generational thing tugs at my heartstrings.

[singlesline]

Michigan taxes differently for one or the other. The dude pays $60k a year due to it not being his primary (non homestead).

The mountain states need to figure this out…

But unlike Michigan where the properties were historically lower value and plentiful, there’s too many ultra wealthy owners with high dollar homes and ranches who will pour money into politics to make sure it never happens.

Maybe Michigan wouldn’t be able to pass it today either, but I think Michigan voters are a little better at telling some options trader from Chicago that he’s welcome to buy a 3.5m vacation home but he can fuck right off if he wants the local residents to vote to lower his taxes.

[TStriker]

And in terms of buying a place up North, that still exists in plenty of places. I can buy a cabin in Maine right now for between 1-200k, which is the equivalent, or even cheaper comparatively, to 50k in the 70's when minimum wage was 2 bucks an hour.

Agree with your overall points, but it was never the min wager earners. It was the middle class, who's relative spending power has shrunk dramatically.

I really think this is more of a cultural change where an off grid cabin or basic one room place in the woods is not what people are willing to buy or want.

Not only the cultural change of people wanting these properties to be turnkey, but the idea of monetizing them. If you told someone in the 70s that you could rent a house/condo/cabin anywhere in the world in a few minutes with a supercomputer everyone carries in their pockets, their head would explode. Same goes for living in $100k vans.

[plugboots]

Reading this inspired me to get my bro to go LLC with a fair operating agreement. It’s a three way ownership with him and my mom. Soon to be just he and I in a decade or whatever. But shit gets complicated. I’d like to think his kids and my kids can enjoy the same memories. And grand kids and so on.

Yes, I started a thread about goofy wives, but mine is a veeerrry good attorney.
My MIL owned a cabin, it’s been an LLC since the 90’s, she died, now the 3 kids get to decide what to do.
None of the 6 grand kids want anything to do with it, so it’s gonna be sold in a few.
The end.