Carbon Feel

[gaijin]

There are a lot of skis being produced recently with Carbon Stringers. I'm curious to your thoughts about how these skis feel vs. full-on carbon top-sheets of yester-year.

Yester-year is even a bit of a stretch because my OG M102 had a full carbon tip. I hated it. And that's my caveat. I've never had a carbon product that I have liked. Going all the way back to Goode poles of the 1990's, I've never had a carbon product that I was happy about.

Here is your chance to tell me I shouldn't worry about various carbon applications (simple stringers) ruining my on-snow sensations.

I start this thread because I don't want to discriminate against any skis that are currently on my radar, but am admittedly bummed at the sight of any carbon whatsoever. And I accept I might be illogical.

School me. In what skis with carbon tech does it not vibrate?

[sb]

Splat to the white courtesy phone?

[sb]

I have used carbon in kayak laminate construction and love everything about it except for the cost.

[sb]

There are also many weaves of carbon and not all work well for a given application.

[sb]

My favorite is the kevlar and carbon hybird fabric.

[sb]

As far as i can tell most carbon stringers are window dressing. They need to use enough of it to make a difference.

[gaijin]

And at the point that it does make a difference, does it then become noisy as well?

[sb]

The only time i have heard carbon make noise is when it is shattered

She doobee

[sb]

The only time i have heard carbon make noise is when it is shattered

She doobee

[gaijin]

Okay. This isn’t really the conversation I was hoping for.

I’ll delete in 8-12 hours after I wake up if this thread can’t get on point.


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[kootenayskier]

Carbon fibre can contribute a variety specific attributes to a skis performance, but it’s just part of an overall design/performance intention. You might associate it with skis you don’t like, but it’s possible many ski designers currently include and highlight carbon content because in this market it communicates light and snappy qualities to skiers looking for this, but that’s not necessarily so. In mountain biking, carbon fibre is often designed and valued for its vibration absorbing qualities. Don’t hate on the carbon.

[toast2266]

^^^ Agreed. I don't think carbon is necessarily the problem. Carbon can do a lot of different things depending on the weave, orientation, etc.

Mostly I think carbon gets used most prominently in skis that are prioritizing low weight over ride quality. Kinda like how metal doesn't necessarily make a ski feel damp, but lots of damp skis have metal in them. But a lot of those skis would still be pretty damp even if you took the metal out.

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[Marshal Olson]

I see three things with carbon:

1. type of carbon. triaxial weave absorbs a little extra resin in the voids around the weave (resin is a very good vibration sink), and the nature of the fibers being woven provides a sink for vibration (the vibration is dispersed across the weave). Unidirectional tape absorbs very little resin in comparison, and is comprised of long continuous strands that all run in one direction, so they transmit more resonance lengthwise.

2. placement matters. Making the ends of skis light might be nice on chairlifts, but it’s taking out mass where it matters the most (see pendulum and the speed of oscillation when the weight is at the end vs the center) from a skiing perspective. The result is a ski becoming more chattery and deflective comparatively.

3. the rest of the build really matters too. Using a bunch of materials with limited resonate damping (low density cores, minimal sidewall material, etc) makes for a ski that will vibrate dramatically more than a ski with a variety of materials that all damp different frequencies.

[turnfarmer]

Some of that feel on mantra 102 might be a different part of the Volkl construction. I remember demoing a Mantra M4 and it had a tinny feeling. I never felt that my BMT 94 any tinny or carbony feel.
Just smacking most modern volkls kendo/mantras with your palm seem to produce the same sound compared to say a Brahma/Bonafide.

[Vitamin I]

...In what skis with carbon tech does it not vibrate?

If you're pretty sure you don't like carbon feel, then great --- go with what you like.

But I can try to help you think of some carbon skis, so then you can talk your way through it and confirm that you still don't like it.

1) Have you tried Volkl V-Werks Katana? Anything you dislike about that feel?

2) Have you tried any Head Kore ski? Like the Kore 117?

(Personally, I like heavy & damp. To me, the Kore series impressively punches above its weight, but still too much impact transmission when stomping to hardpack, etc. To me, my limited time on a V-Werks Katana delivered a surprisingly impressive feel (for carbon), but the resulting light weight still left me dissatisfied (not necessarily the carbon's fault...maybe just the overall low weight).

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[gaijin]

Awesome thoughts, guys. Thanks. Interesting about the weave, Marshall, and the resin absorbing vibrations. Make sense.

I haven't tried the Vwerks, but I know it has a cult. Nor have I tried a Kore. Both for the same reasons that I tried the K2 Mindbender C series a few years back and felt/heard the same thing as my M102 tips. I liked the Mindbender 108ti. I loved the OG M102 outside of ice. Then when I got it on ice it was like fingernails on a chalkboard. They have since changed the tip to just stringers. One of you guys told me it doesn't make noise anymore. Tried my buddy's DPS carbon Lotus a few years back and it wasn't as severe, but still resonated in the slush I skied it in. Although I very well may have been "trying to hear it."

I'm wondering if those carbon layers/weaves, as opposed to simple stringers, are my concern and thusly, trying to convince myself that my stringer fear is irrational.

Anyway, thanks for hitting me back.

[Vitamin I]

My previous comment was about 2 skis with significant carbon --- but carbon stringers are WAY less carbon.

Some heavy-ish skis with carbon stringers:

- Have you tried a Prior Overlord? The 193cm is a 2520g ski made of Quad-Fiberglass, with some carbon stringers on top. Even though I prefer heavy & damp, that type of carbon doesn't bother me one bit. Pretty much my favorite ski.

- Have you tried an old early-gen K2 Pinnacle 118? The 191cm is 2510g, made of Triax-Fiberglass, with some carbon stringers on top. I will be mounting a used pair soon, and I have extremely high confidence that the carbon stringers won't "ruin" it for me.

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