Dropping in on top of Groups/Booting up behind another group

[Foggy_Goggles]

Until GMRS radios enable dual frequency monitoring and a coordinated education/outreach campaign is organized, community radio frequencies will be of limited benefit.

Sent from my Turbo 850 Flatbrimed Highhorse

[cravenmorhead]

While it's not always feasible, I always try and have conversations at trailheads and on skin tracks with other groups - what are your plans for the day? Approaching bottom up or top down? Here's my radio channel if you want to get in touch. Tends to avoid a lot of headache.

[Danno]

To me, its less about right and wrong on more about understanding that other people are part of the risk profile we need to manage.

Reality is more like driving a car. You job is to avoid an accident regardless of who has the right of way.

Blame is a limiting concept. It may allow you to gain the moral high ground but that's about it. If group one had either moved swiftly through the exposure or regrouped at an island of safety once that noticed the first skier of group two was on the slope, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

These are both quality posts.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Gatekeeping, localism, and trailhead beat-downs all need to come back into fashion.

Bring back 80's surf culture

[North]

5 yrs ago I was on a guided trip at Sunrise hut/ GAH, the party at the next hut up the valley was poaching the Sunrise area and then sent shit down from above, the guide and the assistant get on the radio and asked wtf? The assistant said yeah I can tell from coms that group is unguided Americans, GAH head office got on the line and told then you fuck up one more time and yer out

A month later somebody was whining about it here on TGR and I recognised the incident, called em on it and never hear another word

Nice flex. I didn't feel the need to get into it at the time but I'll bite. Apologies in advance for threadrift.

Here's the thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-etiquette-etc

My "whining", and your "callout" included.

What are people's thoughts on terrain etiquette for areas with multiple adjacent huts?

On my last trip my group got slapped on the wrist and then threatened with removal from the hut for skiing in adjacent drainages.

In our case, at the start of our trip it had been about 10
days since the last snowfall. We had a fit and ambitious group that was interested and capable of big days and poking around for leftovers.

One of our neighboring huts didn't seem to mind sharing ridges and areas at the edges of "their" zone. Our other neighbor was a guided party and after watching the guide take his party down boilerplate solar aspects on day 1, we found out he complained to the operator about us skiing the shaded aspects at the edge of "their" zone that same day.

I wonder if that was the GAH trip last january/ Feb ?

. We got there and sleds were poaching the area around the hut so the assistant went out and said " hey man we are trying to run a hut trip here could you please respect that ? " So they left but he got pictures of everyone.

Then the party up the drainage poached the area twice, on the 3rd time they kicked off a size 3 with a big crown to ground which dropped 700 meters into our tenure ( a truly impressive aviy ! ) we were in that drainage looking for pow, fortunately we were not under it at the time.

That was the last straw for the lead guide who wasn't expecting and seemed to think incoming from above was dangerous so he got on the horn, the assistant commented the other party sounded American from how they talk about what they were doing.

So even if it wasn't you that is what tenure poaching looks like to the poachee who is trying to run a guiding business

I think there was an abscessed tooth in that other hut so they were on the horn for medical help ( we had 2 doctors and a pharmacist ) and after much discussion amongst the pro's about what can happen
I seem to remember they recommended buddy evac and eventually I believe he did

IME there is at least 1 md on every hut trip and usually at least one Deadhead

Our group was indeed (gasp) "unguided Americans." If it matters, the group included 4 professional guides, and 1 professional avalanche forecaster.

Members of my party (not me) skied northerlys on the edge of "your" tenure on day 1. We were then contacted by GAH who told us we could not ski outside of our "hut tenure." This was the first time we'd heard of hut tenure and the invisible boundary between the huts.

Later in the trip, members of my party (not me) triggered a D3(!?) from an alpine ridge that separates the two huts. I was told there was no intention to drop to the Sunrise side, and that the slide was triggered when one of them stepped off the ridge to take a leak. Maybe that was a BS cya story, but I believed them given that in my recollection the Sunrise side was a solar aspect (those were skiing poorly) and the Meadow side was more northerly.

A member of my party did develop an abscessed tooth. He asked for medical advice over the radio, looked at the price of the heli evac, and toured out to the road solo.

GAH did threaten to fly in the RCMP and remove us from the hut (!) if we continued to ski outside of "our tenure". We continued to ski well outside of "our tenure," but stopped visiting the edge of the Sunrise zone, given the active guard (guide).

You call it "poaching," I call it backcountry skiing. The GAH trip was the first and only time I've encountered this scenario. I could understand your guide's annoyance if we were skiing out your front door. We felt the edges were in play, and based on our interactions with other adjacent groups (or lack thereof), the conflict with your group seemed to be an outlier.

I believe the traditional way to settle this is with a ski off. I'm in America, but will travel to compete. If we compete in your country, you'll have to let me know which slopes are approved for backcountry skiing.

[m2711c]

a 5 year old grudge match skioff? subscribed!


fact.

[summit]

Canadian huts in the tenure system do not work like the huts on USFS land in the US.

Unguided groups not knowing the rules, not following rules, or being perceived to take too high of risks make it harder and harder to get an unguided booking in Canada, which is frustrating for other unguided groups who really really really don't want to have to be guided.

Of course, that problem set has very little to do with the main topic of this thread.

[subtle plague]

Gatekeeping, localism, and trailhead beat-downs all need to come back into fashion.

YES. and the lines around a basin could be regulated by the "dick eaters". Wearing matching Outfits like in hawaii at Pipeline

[subtle plague]

Huh...I sure do my best to never drop in on anyone. Even in ski areas like Engelberg. It is hard on the Laub sometimes.


If someone is far ahead I don't go to the same objective. If someone dropped in on me after I dropped in first and was visible, I'd teach them some manners.
If people crawled up after me I'd grudgeingly wait another hour at the top, hopefully in the sun. Without wind.


More interesting in Europe is: many people on the same slope. Avoidable while touring( if you're not skiing the boring Standard Autobahn routes).

Not so much if you're first in the Rotair tram

[Foggy_Goggles]

@North thread drift is one of the few thinks we've got left

Canada...where they do most thinks better including the extremes of calling the cops on BC skiers and Totally Fuckin' Cowboy. Us Americans really need to step it up in the latter and minimize the former.

...and Scandos in Engleburg is also a worthy topic.

Sent from a 6 m/s face melting thermal

[XXX-er]

Nice flex. I didn't feel the need to get into it at the time but I'll bite. Apologies in advance for threadrift.

Here's the thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-etiquette-etc

My "whining", and your "callout" included.





Our group was indeed (gasp) "unguided Americans." If it matters, the group included 4 professional guides, and 1 professional avalanche forecaster.

Members of my party (not me) skied northerlys on the edge of "your" tenure on day 1. We were then contacted by GAH who told us we could not ski outside of our "hut tenure." This was the first time we'd heard of hut tenure and the invisible boundary between the huts.

Later in the trip, members of my party (not me) triggered a D3(!?) from an alpine ridge that separates the two huts. I was told there was no intention to drop to the Sunrise side, and that the slide was triggered when one of them stepped off the ridge to take a leak. Maybe that was a BS cya story, but I believed them given that in my recollection the Sunrise side was a solar aspect (those were skiing poorly) and the Meadow side was more northerly.

A member of my party did develop an abscessed tooth. He asked for medical advice over the radio, looked at the price of the heli evac, and toured out to the road solo.

GAH did threaten to fly in the RCMP and remove us from the hut (!) if we continued to ski outside of "our tenure". We continued to ski well outside of "our tenure," but stopped visiting the edge of the Sunrise zone, given the active guard (guide).

You call it "poaching," I call it backcountry skiing. The GAH trip was the first and only time I've encountered this scenario. I could understand your guide's annoyance if we were skiing out your front door. We felt the edges were in play, and based on our interactions with other adjacent groups (or lack thereof), the conflict with your group seemed to be an outlier.

I believe the traditional way to settle this is with a ski off. I'm in America, but will travel to compete. If we compete in your country, you'll have to let me know which slopes are approved for backcountry skiing.

This is not thread drift cuz this is totally skiing/ being above another group in addition to being where you were told not to be

The guide and his assistant are pro's who run trips into GAH all the time and they were really good, they booked the hut, they paid the bill and they were calling the shots, for some reason it seemed relevant to the assistant who said " those are unguided americans " which is probaly neither here nor there but one would think if you had that many " pros " you would know better

You can't say you didnt know cuz this was not the middle of nowhere, you booked a hut in the GAH tenure a valley which will have 60+ skiers stacked up in it all winter long and you knew this cuz changover was a gong show, there are 4 huts with 4 areas stacked on top of one another, the maps have clear lines of the 4 area's attached to the 4 huts so you were told once not to ski outside your area and then you go outside your area a 2nd time and kick off a big slide , not only were you skiing above another party you were not suposed to be there and were told not to go there

there was no intention to ski the sunrise side cuz it was impossible due to the the big fucking sheer cliff
I was in the bottom of that valley when they kicked off the top and it was more than someone taking a pee over the edge, we could see a boot pack around the peak, the guide said they must have went around the peak where they were not suposed to be in hopes of a better line for the ski down and kicked it off

Your " back country skiing " had the guides pissed at you and GAH pissed at you enough to threaten bringing in the federales which is pretty serious shit as BC huts in BC goes

[adrenalated]

So we doing the ski off, or what?

Will all the brofessional guides from both parties be participating as well?

[XXX-er]

well include the hut keeper who was big guy and the cook who was a hot weightlifting gal I duno if they stand a chance, in any case they certianly didnt look very good or sound real smart on the radio, the duh factor was heavy

[Foggy_Goggles]

I feel Unguided American is redundant . I'll wear that badge with pride.

Can you please call them Mounties, it fits the vibe better

Tomorrow in the anniversary of the only actually TGR winner takes all ski off ever at Corn Harvest

[XXX-er]

well they are Canada's federal police so they all go thru the 26 week paramilitary training in Regina, i could just see them marching off the chopper wearing the red serge to kick North out of the GAH tenure for tresspassing and kicking off an aviy from overhead which was kind of cool but only cuz i wasn't under it

[Foggy_Goggles]

If you say so...or maybe not? Is there precedent? It certainly adds a bit of context to the Quandry Incident. Perhaps they should have called 911.

[XXX-er]

i think once GAH say you have broken enough rules to get the boot you would be tresspassing but i don't know if the mounties could goosestep in all that pow ?

I duno if you been there but for the back country GAH is a busy place when we landed half a doz sledders were ripping around the lodge so the guide went out an said hey we are trying to run a ski week here and they left

busy

[Foggy_Goggles]

Negative on GAH, but I've been to a handful of huts in BC guided and not...but I certainly identify as an Unguided American.

I'm just responding to your claim that your guides were gonna call the cops on North's group and that they would have somehow been removed from their hut trip. I am wondering about the mechanics of that and if it has ever happened.

[adrenalated]

The Mounties can't enforce shit at the lodges, they can't get the horses into the helicopter

fact

[Bunion 2020]

The Mounties can't enforce shit at the lodges, they can't get the horses into the helicopter

fact

Do you have any fucking idea what horseshoes would do to the inside of a Helicopter?

Sometimes the sheer ignorance of this place is astounding. Sheesh!

















/S

[rudy]

I'm all for this threadrift. Shit just got way more interesting...

[XXX-er]

Negative on GAH, but I've been to a handful of huts in BC guided and not...but I certainly identify as an Unguided American.

I'm just responding to your claim that your guides were gonna call the cops on North's group and that they would have somehow been removed from their hut trip. I am wondering about the mechanics of that and if it has ever happened.

I did not claim the guides were calling the RCMP, I said the guides complained to GAH apparently twice about North & bros skiing out of their area/ kicking off a class 2 above them, GAH who had rented the hut to North then threatened to kick North and his group out with the assistance of the RCMP if necessary, cuz 3 strikes and yer out.

In fact North fessed up to everything if not more than I was talking about, which makes him look even dumber, he could/ should have just said nothing, again possibly buddy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer

Is there a precedent for a BC skier getting the boot from a hut in BC with RCMP assistance ? maybe not in America cuz there are no RCMP , but very possibly in the BC in BC,

a local guide i know who did a lot of work at GAH told me he had someone removed from a hut so apparently its possible

Altho I supose if you just claim to be a citizen of the world maybe they would leave you alone ?

[adrenalated]

Yah, it is the only way...... Chinese Downhill

[North]

This is not thread drift cuz this is totally skiing/ being above another group in addition to being where you were told not to be

So be it, we drift.

You can't say you didnt know cuz this was not the middle of nowhere, you booked a hut in the GAH tenure a valley which will have 60+ skiers stacked up in it all winter long and you knew this cuz changover was a gong show, there are 4 huts with 4 areas stacked on top of one another, the maps have clear lines of the 4 area's attached to the 4 huts

I was aware that there were adjacent GAH huts. Was not aware that we were required to stay hemmed in to specific terrain until Day 1 at the hut. I don't remember reading about it ahead of booking. Maybe we ARE as dumb as you've repeatedly suggested and missed it. If it wasn't there before, I would assume it's been added. I think it's a pretty unique setup/policy worthy of explicit mention upfront. Myself and the majority of the group would've opted out and spent our loonies and toonies elsewhere we'd known about it prior to booking.

so you were told once not to ski outside your area and then you go outside your area a 2nd time and kick off a big slide , not only were you skiing above another party you were not suposed to be there and were told not to go there

- I was not involved in either trip to terrain in or adjacent to the Sunrise valley
- Nobody skied above another party, unless you know something I don't know
- My recollection is that the slide was triggered from the ridge that runs E off Cupola Mtn. Y/N? If Y, and the ridge is the boundary between Meadow and Sunrise tenure, are we not allowed to use it to access terrain on the Meadow side? Where's the cutoff for "trespassing"? 10 steps off the apex of the ridge? 11? If N, and it was a ridge fully in Sunrise zone school away.

well include the hut keeper who was big guy and the cook who was a hot weightlifting gal I duno if they stand a chance, in any case they certianly didnt look very good or sound real smart on the radio, the duh factor was heavy

If hut keepers are in the ski-off I feel good about my chances. Our hut keeper, Robson (no joke), absolutely ripped. If you want to include a radio-smooth-operator-off I'd propose a rating scale of 1 to Chuck Yeager. You can include a Canadian pilot in the scale if you'd like but Chuck=10. Sorry.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Cliff Notes:

The Unguided Americans (I want T shirts and meme please) were given no guidance.

The Heavily Guided Subject of the Queen came with the skiing equivalent of the Strongly Worded Letter