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  1. #1
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    Hardtail frames with BTR geo sans BTR pricetag?

    I think BTR has the right idea with making aggressive hardtails - making the unsagged HTA very slack but keeping the intended fork travel short, 120-130mm. Seems like most other "enduro" hardtail frames do the opposite, with forks 140-170mm but relatively conservative HTAs which would end up being ~69 when the fork is deep in its travel.

    Are any other frame manufacturers making (non-custom) hardtails with headtube angles 62 - 63deg with a <140mm fork?

  2. #2
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    Don't know if it's THAT slack but I think new Solaris is like 65/120mm?
    Do I detect a lot of anger flowing around this place? Kind of like a pubescent volatility, some angst, a lot of I'm-sixteen-and-angry-at-my-father syndrome?

    fuck that noise.

    gmen.

  3. #3
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    In my hardtail experience, if you ride chunky terrain frequently you start to develop a stance in which the fork is weighted a little bit more than a very centered front/back weighting stance in a modern geo FS bike.

    Doing so allows the rear end to pivot upward rather than hang up on square edge hits.

    My point here is that based on my HT experience anyway, I prefer a 140 or better yet 150 mm fork….these usually are 62-63.5 unsagged HA, so even 60 mm into travel the HA is only 65-66.5 deg. Not sure where you’re getting that 69 deg example? Are you not referring to the usual hardtail brands like Chromag, Ragley, On One etc? I recall even Marin had a 62 deg HA frame.

    But your post is interesting. I recall BTR having a 61 deg HA with a 150 mm fork but I haven’t paid attention lately.
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  4. #4
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    Seems like you could get one of the 62 HA affordable frames and use an angle set to get the slack 130 mm bike you’re looking for. Lots of shorter crank options to compensate for the slightly lower BB
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Seems like you could get one of the 62 HA affordable frames and use an angle set to get the slack 130 mm bike youíre looking for. Lots of shorter crank options to compensate for the slightly lower BB
    Or, run the longer fork with enough tokens that you never use that last 20-30 mm of travel?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    In my hardtail experience, if you ride chunky terrain frequently you start to develop a stance in which the fork is weighted a little bit more than a very centered front/back weighting stance in a modern geo FS bike.

    Doing so allows the rear end to pivot upward rather than hang up on square edge hits.

    My point here is that based on my HT experience anyway, I prefer a 140 or better yet 150 mm forkÖ.these usually are 62-63.5 unsagged HA, so even 60 mm into travel the HA is only 65-66.5 deg. Not sure where youíre getting that 69 deg example? Are you not referring to the usual hardtail brands like Chromag, Ragley, On One etc? I recall even Marin had a 62 deg HA frame.

    But your post is interesting. I recall BTR having a 61 deg HA with a 150 mm fork but I havenít paid attention lately.
    For a bit of context, I currently have a Banshee Paradox with a 130mm Mezzer Pro which probably sits around 65.5 deg for the headtube angle. Perfectly fine for most riding, but I find for sustained rough and steep sections I'm wishing for a slacker bike, but not necessarily more travel. It also doesn't help much that the Paradox prefers a more neutral, balanced position, especially compared to my full-sus G1 which just likes the front end hammered into as much as possible.

    Running a longer fork on the popular hardcore hardtails but adding progression until the last 20-40mm of travel isn't used isn't a bad idea, but seems a bit... wasteful? Very aware that this is silly, especially since I'm running a 180mm enduro fork on my hardtail stepped down to 130mm. Generally on a hardtail I want a stiff, supportive fork that pairs well with the static rear end.

    For my own purposes, I'll probably try a angleset of some sort on the Banshee and go from there. But it's a little weird to me that in the hardtail world, more enduro-oriented = more fork travel. That makes sense in FS world, but I'm not convinced it's the right call for hardtails.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Or, run the longer fork with enough tokens that you never use that last 20-30 mm of travel?
    This is what I do too... basically a 150mm fork with the tokens and pressure of a 120-130mm fork - especially as getting a real (ie fox 36 etc) fork in short travels is increasingly hard these days.

    edit - just saw your post on mezzer pro being setup at 130mm... very interesting!

    But yeah, the only real difference between shortening a longer fork vs running a longer fork with the same pressure/etc as you would on a shorter setup is your are just introducing a mechanical stop to the travel (the shorter shaft length). The fork itself is basically setup the same.

  8. #8
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    Great minds Dan and Marshall.

    I run a 150mm Manitou Mattoc on a Cove Hummer with a lot of mid stroke support and bottom out resistance. Most of the travel is to 110- 130 with the bigger hits eating the last 20mm

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by McShortyShorts View Post

    Are any other frame manufacturers making (non-custom) hardtails with headtube angles 62 - 63deg with a <140mm fork?
    Marin El Roy is what you seek (I did not see "light weight" in your list of considerations...

    https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/202...-frame-kit#buy

    Never mind - I see that your range was 120-130 vs 140-170...

    In that case I agree with upthread - run the 140 with tokens.

    I found one place selling an el roy complete for like $1300...edit - looks like marin got wise to them selling below MAP...$529 for the frame tho!
    Last edited by mildbill.; 12-04-2023 at 12:15 PM. Reason: shouldve read more carefully first time, and then updating info....

  10. #10
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    Manitou doesn't officially endorse 130mm of travel on the Mezzer, but they also include enough spacers with the fork to set it to 130 so....

    FWIW, I love the Mezzer @130mm of travel. Does a really good job muting out small vibrations and provides good front tire grip, while still being really supportive, and feels really balanced on my hardtail

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by McShortyShorts View Post
    Manitou doesn't officially endorse 130mm of travel on the Mezzer, but they also include enough spacers with the fork to set it to 130 so....

    FWIW, I love the Mezzer @130mm of travel. Does a really good job muting out small vibrations and provides good front tire grip, while still being really supportive, and feels really balanced on my hardtail

    Not that it totally fits here, but for OP just built up a new bird forge, mix of 853 and 6 series, 140 fork tho:/ static HA is 64

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Do I detect a lot of anger flowing around this place? Kind of like a pubescent volatility, some angst, a lot of I'm-sixteen-and-angry-at-my-father syndrome?

    fuck that noise.

    gmen.

  12. #12
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    X4 or whatever for the 150mm fork set up to be progressive.

    A bit of extra forgiveness is nice for nosing into rough landings.

  13. #13
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    a BIT off topic.

    I love the idea of a hardtail with slack angles, but ALSO like the light weight of carbon, AND the small price of the non-branded frames from factory direct.

    Anyone found a similar, short travel bike as above, but carbon and direct?


  14. #14
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    Alright, sounds like I need to try out longer forks on a hardtail again... my only experience has been an old Commencal Meta HT and that's been the worst bike I've ridden to date

  15. #15
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    Hardtail frames with BTR geo sans BTR pricetag?

    Iím a believer in progressive setup, but personally still think 130-140 is the sweet spot. You could go custom with Marino. Not gonna be light but itíll be exactly what you want.

    https://www.marinobike.com/
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  16. #16
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    If you are into trail bike hardtails and like Titanium at reasonable prices, have a look here:
    https://labaustere.com/products/lab-...trail-hardtail
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #17
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    Marshal stop taking all my money!!! I'm already putting aside funds/excuses for 2-3 pairs of HLS for next season. Bike looks sweet tho and I've been telling everyone they should get it.

  18. #18
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    Sorry not sorry!
    haha

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    Iím a believer in progressive setup, but personally still think 130-140 is the sweet spot. You could go custom with Marino. Not gonna be light but itíll be exactly what you want.

    https://www.marinobike.com/
    For what it's worth I ordered a frame from him about a year ago. The communication was poor and it had a pretty big issue with the brake tab alignment he wouldn't rectify.

    This thread is kind of funny, a lot of people suggesting things that are not what the OP asked for. He is chaising a bit of a unicorn I suppose.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    For what it's worth I ordered a frame from him about a year ago. The communication was poor and it had a pretty big issue with the brake tab alignment he wouldn't rectify.

    This thread is kind of funny, a lot of people suggesting things that are not what the OP asked for. He is chaising a bit of a unicorn I suppose.
    Damn, that sucks. I knew communication was an issue, but seemed like most people got what they were expecting. Were you able to sort it out yourself?

    There may be some Brit bikes that fit what you want once you consider that most of the geos are sagged. Though, they don't always tell you, sometimes you have to contact them and ask. Otherwise, I think an inexpensive 140mm hardtail with a angle reducing headset is the next best option. That's what I've been planning on doing cause affordable options are limited in the short travel, super slack hardtail space, and I really like my Eccentric other than wanting a slacker HTA.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  21. #21
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    I suppose I am unicorn hunting... browsing thru the popular hardcore hardtail options again, still seems like 63 deg HTA is the non-custom limit, probably for good reason, and even then the stack and reach numbers don't always work out to what I want. I guess it's good then that the custom hardtail market is alive and well

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    Damn, that sucks. I knew communication was an issue, but seemed like most people got what they were expecting. Were you able to sort it out yourself?
    I ordered one if his of the shelf frames, originally he told me it was in stock and should ship after powder coating in two weeks. I checked back in about 4 weeks and got nothing. Hit him back about a week later and got a response that he just finished making the frame and it should go to powder coating within the week…. It shipped about 3-4 weeks after that.

    The I.S. tab was way out of alignment and too far in. He said that it was fine because calipers are adjustable. You couldn't even get the rotor past the adapter, so caliper alignment wasn't the issue. I ended up filing it until I was sick of filing. Which left me limited to using a 160mm, but able to make it work.

    I kept it cordial and chalked it up to “one of those things..” If it was domestic the frame would have been sent back.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by McShortyShorts View Post
    I suppose I am unicorn hunting... browsing thru the popular hardcore hardtail options again, still seems like 63 deg HTA is the non-custom limit, probably for good reason, and even then the stack and reach numbers don't always work out to what I want. I guess it's good then that the custom hardtail market is alive and well
    There are mainstreamish brands with 62 HA, so keep looking, or you can go for a 58 deg HA: https://m.pinkbike.com/news/shand-la...ead-angle.html

    But keep in mind at some point you get slack enough that the fork flexes rather than compresses, and the bushings bind.

    Unfortunately, the only worthwhile study I've seen on bushing bind vs HTA was subject to NDA (ie. I can't share it). The short version is that friction increases drastically and absorptiveness falls off a cliff at the inflection point (indicated at 62.0 degrees with no mention of sag IIRC). Interestingly, increasing bushing overlap doesn't fix the issue, which is (allegedly) one of the primary reasons that modern motocross bikes have settled at 63.5-64 degrees, with extra steering stability being sought via fork offset, weight distribution, and steering dampers, rather than slacker steering angles. As you might imagine, Honda, Yamaha, KTM, etc. have done far more testing in this arena than the entire MTB industry combined.
    Obviously a moto has rear suspension, so can’t directly compare HA, but the concept is similar.
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  24. #24
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    I have an On One "Hello Dave", which is a steel 29er hardtail with a 62* HTA with a 150mm fork. Mine has a 160mm Lyrik. I like it quite a bit.

    It's heavy, but there is a titanium version available too.

    It's not the short travel slack HT you're seeking, but maybe it's of interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  25. #25
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    Not sure what prices will be like on that side of the pond; but check out the Pipedream Sirius. With a 120 fork, it's very capable, though I've been running mine with a 140 for the last year because it was all I could get my hands on when fork shopping. I'm planning to split the difference and go for 130 when I next service it. FWIW I like to ride a mix of steep tech as well as put in big miles, the bike does both very well.

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