Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869

    Happy Native American day

    I’m sorry people stole your land before my grandparents came over on the Lusitania

    Wakan Tanka

    The hoop. The circle. The great mystery.

    The mastery of the creator. All life is sacred and blessed. And we give thanks.

    PS. Who the fuck decided to save the pilgrims from starvation?
    . . .

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    on the banks of Fish Creek
    Posts
    7,384
    your trolls are weak....


    fact.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869
    Quote Originally Posted by m2711c View Post
    your trolls are weak....


    fact.
    It’s actually Native American day. My iPhone said so.

    Enjoy your white privellege.
    . . .

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    We should celebrate Native American day. All the great tribal nations of America deserve to have their story told with consideration, not gross stereotypes. The indigenous power of Lakota America and Cherokee America from the 16th century to today is a story of survival, resilience, transformation, and coexistence.

    A paternal self-absolving embrace with a token mishmash of phrases thrown in is a bad look. Archaeological evidence shows early European colonies often survived and thrived because of intermarriage resulting in mixed European & Native families. There are instances of colonies fully integrating with Native tribes. Natives allied themselves with Spanish, French, or English as friends in what became the conquest of North America. Natives often fought alongside various European groups.

    Natives went from a few tens of thousands in the 17th & 18th century, to a few hundred thousand in the early 1900s, to millions of Americans today. Like 80% of Americans, 70% of Natives live in urban areas. In recent decades Native business ownership increased by nearly 100% and college attendance rates doubled. The spirit of Native culture survives.

    Also like poor rural America, poor rural Native America suffers from a lot of the same problems: suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, and much lower college attendance rates. As wards of the federal government life on reservations can be bleak.

    Bias is not the problem. Instead when it comes to Native American freedom, thinking the issue is racism or white privilege and not the lack of control over their own affairs is the main problem today. The way to right the wrongs of the past is to treat America's indigenous inhabitants. "as competent, capable, sovereign people with the right to own their land and manage their lives."

    https://www.amazon.com/Heartbeat-Wou...erica-Present/
    https://www.pilotonline.com/2020/08/...o-lost-colony/
    https://www.nber.org/papers/w25849#fromrss
    https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/...he-white-tape/

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,829
    I was on the phone with a contractor I'm pretty friendly with on Wednesday. At the end of our convo I wished him a happy TG. He's first nation. I cringed hard the split second after I'd hung up realizing what I'd said. Oh well, he knows I didn't mean anything by it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869
    Well said multi verse.

    Not sure why M series jong thought I was trolling.
    I have great respect for real Americans. Indigenous people.
    They got fucked over. And over.

    This day is a great day to honor.
    The irony of it being the day after thanksgiving is more awesome.
    . . .

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    The irony of it being the day after thanksgiving is more awesome.
    It's not ironic when you read President Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation which formalized the last Thursday of November as a day of Thanksgiving for our "inestimable blessings of peace, union, and harmony" despite our many sins and our "national perverseness and disobedience."

    Thanksgiving was meant to be a day of introspection where we give thanks for the good things we've done and compassion for our many failings.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ation_1863.pdf

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869
    It’s even more ironic.
    Born and bred in the land of Lincoln
    Then you read more and realize Lincoln wasn’t the great freer of slaves
    He was a rascist fuckstick.
    . . .

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869
    will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
    . . .

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    Thanksgiving for Lincoln was about peace and uniting all Americans by healing old wounds.

    Core Shot keeps bringing up Lincoln's early campaign quotes in numerous threads without acknowledging context or the fact that his position evolved and changed throughout his life. His quote is also taken out of context because Lincoln was constantly being called an abolitionist by his opponents. So early on Lincoln was careful to frame his position as preserving the Union, not freeing the slaves. He lost that particular election to his pro-slavery opponent anyway.

    Once elected as President he constantly allowed debate within the party about emancipation. And he issued the Emancipation Proclamation during his first term. In his second term he went further. He praised Black men for their bravery on the battlefield and favored giving Black men the right to vote. President Lincoln also invited Frederick Douglass to the White House multiple times to discuss how to improve the lives of Black Americans.

    Later near the end of Lincoln's second term and with victory over the South assured, John Wilkes Booth was in the audience next to the White House when Lincoln gave an extemporaneous speech from a balcony calling for giving voting rights to Black Americans. Enraged, Booth promised to kill him and declared that it would be the last speech that Lincoln would ever make. Frederick Douglass later said about the assassination, “A simple leaden bullet and a few grains of powder are sufficient in the shortest limit of time to blast and ruin all that is precious in human existence.”

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    Lincoln was all in on preserving the Union. He didnít give two shits about emancipation before the war. when it was politically and militarily advantageous he moved to that position. He was never anywhere close to being an ďabolishinistĒ until the war was well under way. He declared war because of secession. Everything else was secondary to him
    Last edited by mcski; 11-25-2023 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    You're wrong. The American Civil War was fought over slavery. Lincoln framed his initial position as preserving the Union to keep his political coalition intact. History and reality has a surprising amount of detail. Americans before America existed argued about slavery. Reducing those arguments down to a soundbite ignores how contentious these issue were. Lincoln was absolutely unequivocally morally opposed slavery. But initially he had to publicly avoid connecting the war to black rights in order to preserve the Union.

    Just look at his revealed preferences: he freed the slaves, he created black regiments, he praised black valor & black leaders, he called for black constitutional rights. Passed after his assassination, the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution are part of his legacy.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176
    There would have been no war if the south had not seceded. Lincolnís priority was the Union. He would not have gone to war over slavery. Thatís fiction

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    Because of slavery. The South seceded because they were concerned the federal government would end slavery. The South seceded because so called Southern "states' rights" were about slavery. Every Confederate secession document and argument was connected to slavery. Other than slavery, the Confederates were happy to enforce or ignore states' rights or use federal power when it suited them. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to preserve slavery and hundreds of thousands of Americans died to end slavery. We should be thankful the American army defeated the Confederates and ended the practice of slavery in America.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    True. Theyíre was the concern in the South that Lincoln would take their slavery in the same way 2nd amendment people thought Obama would take their guns. The south jumped on that and seceded. Slavery was certainly a driver of the war but to say the war was about slavery is too black and white (pun intended). There were half a dozen drivers behind the war, not just slavery. And again, Lincoln would not have gone to war over slavery and definitely would have opted for the preservation of the Union if it meant slavery had to continue in the south. The south May have been fighting to preserve slavery but Lincolnís fight was to preserve the Union
    Last edited by mcski; 11-25-2023 at 02:35 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    In your Dreams
    Posts
    1,962
    Seems to me that all wars have multiple causations including luck and stupidity.

    Looking at the state current world affairs. As the Native Americans have possessed territories in N and S America for 1000's of years, shouldn't they be entitled to take back control of their land?
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    All the evidence points to slavery as the reason for the war. Despite the overwhelming evidence people still argue other factors caused the war. The South seceded shortly after Lincoln became President because the main issue at the time was the extinction of slavery. In 1858 three years before the war Lincoln said in speech, "A house divided against itself cannot stand" going on to say, "I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free."

    The issue that divided the country was slavery. Lincoln believed the country would either become all slave or all free. He ran for President and fought the South for freedom. If slavery could have been ended without war that would have happened instead. The issue gets confused today because of post-war Southern "states' rights" propaganda.

    Slavery was the cause of the Civil War. There's no other accurate historical explanation. Lincoln's view never wavered and as the war progressed the issue of black rights became foremost in his mind. He turned those beliefs into law. Americans, including almost 200,000 former slaves themselves, fought the most destructive war in its history to end slavery thus saving the United States of America.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    Thatís incorrect. Lincoln was not going to do anything that would jeopardize the Union. Doris and most historians are in agreement on that. The South had multiple grievances besides Slavery. Slavery was certainly a huge factor for the South going to war, but not the only one by any means and not the reason Lincoln went to war. his objective was preserving the Union. If Slavery didnít exist and the South tried to secede similarly, Lincoln would have gone to war over that because the Union was primary to him. There were lots of nuances to the civil war and lots of politics. Freeing slaves was not a primary objective of the north. As the war went on, it made sense strategically. On a grand scale morality had little to do with it. Lincoln fought the war to save the Union. Not end slavery. Those things were tied together but again itís not cut and dried. Saying slavery caused the civil war is similar to saying states rights caused the civil war. They are both correct and incorrect statements. Like someone said above, war is complicated Or somethjng like that

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    20,869
    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Lincoln was all in on preserving the Union. He didn’t give two shits about emancipation before the war. when it was politically and militarily advantageous he moved to that position. He was never anywhere close to being an “abolishinist” until the war was well under way. He declared war because of secession. Everything else was secondary to him
    Yep. It’s all about the union and federal power.

    PS. We are supposed to be honoring the indigenous people. Not everything is black and white.

    Sometimes it’s just wakan
    . . .

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Yep. It’s all about the union and federal power.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    If Slavery didn’t exist and the South tried to secede similarly, Lincoln would have gone to war over that because the Union was primary to him.
    Wait, what? "If Slavery didn’t exist," is not an argument. Slavery did exist. The South seceded because it wanted to preserve slavery while the North wanted to end slavery. Literally, everything else follows from that fact. Confederates regarded Lincoln’s “House Divided” speech of 1858 as proof an abolitionist North wanted to end slavery. The North could have preserved the Union without going to war by legally protecting slavery. There were even a minority of Northerners who tried pursuing that path but the legislation never passed.

    So what's the point of trying to obscure Civil War history other than neo-Confederate denialism? If you guys are right, what specific Southern rights were in danger other than slavery?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    The point was Lincoln fought to preserve the Union. If he had the choice between the Union and Slavery he made it clear that his priority was the Union. The south preemptively seceded - slavery wasnít gonna end anytime soon because of Lincoln and Congress

    Also, to get this thread back on track, Lincoln hung a lot of Indians. Biggest single execution in US history.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    Your Civil War argument is nonsensical and ahistorical.

    It's true the largest single one day execution in US history occurred in Mankato Minnesota after a Lakota uprising massacre. Minnesotans wanted to hang even more people, over 300 in fact. Lincoln personally reviewed the cases and argued the Native American weren't given due process. For that reason Lincoln wanted to prevent any executions at all but was told that would cause even more Native American deaths due to reprisals & vigilantism. So after a lengthy review Lincoln managed to prevent the execution of nearly 90% of the defendants, leaving only those for which there were verified instances of rape or murder.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    If you canít make sense of it thatís on you. I think I was pretty clear for typing on a phone and nothing that Doris or other historians havenít said already. It might not make sense to you but itís historically accurate

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Edge of the Great Basin
    Posts
    5,421
    I don't know who Doris is but your argument was based on a counterfactual which by definition is a historical inaccuracy. Something that should give people pause is this is one of Core Shot's favorite conspiracies. Something that just happens to march in lockstep with Southern revisionism which led to the reconstruction reign of terror and Jim Crow. The fact that neo-Confederates were allowed to write the history textbooks for generations of Americans is a scandal on its own.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
    Posts
    9,176

    Happy Native American day

    Doris Kearns Goodwin. Most well known historian regarding Lincoln

    I think youíre arguing more against Coreshot than about civil war history. Understandable lol. Iím not pushing any kook civil war revisionism of which there is plenty in the racist south, but your position on Lincoln and the North in regards to why they were fighting is just not accurate. Slavery was certainly a primary cause of the war, but not the only one, and not what was most important to Lincoln

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •