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  1. #2326
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    Another American moron thinking that we can project our desires and they are therefore more valid. One side of this war doesn't want a two-state solution. The refusal to acknowledge it as a viable solution is apparently just too hard to understand.
    Currently both sides are against a two state solution. The Israeli government has being doing what they can to keep undermining that possibility.

    What I never hear from the Ďsupport Israel at all costsí group is what their expected outcome is. Summit says that Hamas is likely to be replaced with something worse. Neither governing authority supports a two state solution. Israel estimates that 5k of 25k Hamas militants have been killed, which means ~10k civilians have been killed. And to achieve that, half the structures in norther Gaza are damaged or destroyed. And now it moves South.

    Could someone outline how all this leads to a more secure Israel, because it seems to me like itís more like an underpants gnomes type situation. Thereís no achievable goal thatís been outlined, and it seems to me that if anything, the carnage in Gaza is only leading to a more violent future for Israel.

  2. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Oh I didn't vote for the US Constitution either

    But I get held into account for every Indian massacre and propped-up dictator in the world, so fuck all kidnapper apologists - Hamas is Palestine same as Black September, and the PLF, and those noble hijackers who threw Leon Klinghoffer and his wheelchair overboard the Achile Lauro.

    That's Palestine - their best and brightest on the world stage

    You'd have to dig deep in some jungle somewhere to find a more ignominious people than the Palestinians in my lifetime. One terrorist act after another. And here you are fucking supporting them after their latest fucking act of barbarism. bleagh
    Careful painting with that terrorism brush, it might cover more than you intended in this case. There are some families of kidnapped British soldiers that would like a word.

  3. #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Currently both sides are against a two state solution. The Israeli government has being doing what they can to keep undermining that possibility.

    What I never hear from the ‘support Israel at all costs’ group is what their expected outcome is. Summit says that Hamas is likely to be replaced with something worse. Neither governing authority supports a two state solution. Israel estimates that 5k of 25k Hamas militants have been killed, which means ~10k civilians have been killed. And to achieve that, half the structures in norther Gaza are damaged or destroyed. And now it moves South.

    Could someone outline how all this leads to a more secure Israel, because it seems to me like it’s more like an underpants gnomes type situation. There’s no achievable goal that’s been outlined, and it seems to me that if anything, the carnage in Gaza is only leading to a more violent future for Israel.
    You can’t un fuck the situation. So either live with it, or don’t complain when Israel shoots back.

  4. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    You canít un fuck the situation. So either live with it, or donít complain when Israel shoots back.
    Got it. Kill a bunch of people for no discernible security goal.

  5. #2330
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    Careful painting with that terrorism brush, it might cover more than you intended in this case. There are some families of kidnapped British soldiers that would like a word.
    Menachem Begin has entered the terrorism chat

  6. #2331
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    Dalia Ziada is an Egyptian liberal Muslim democracy activist & acclaimed author who played a key role removing the Mubarak regime in 2011. As a student she studied abroad in America at Tufts University. Currently, she leads two think tanks: Liberal Democracy Institute, and MEEM Center for Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean Studies. In addition, she is a board member of the Foreign Affairs Committee at the National Council for Women in Egypt.

    She's made several appearances on Egyptian & Israeli television networks arguing in favor of Israel’s fight against Hamas saying Egypt and the region would benefit if Hamas is eliminated.



    “I fully support what Israel is doing to eliminate Hamas,” she said, but hopes she's not taken out of context, "as if inciting against the Palestinians."

    “On the contrary, every drop of blood that is shed, whether Palestinian or Israeli, I am completely against it. These are citizens who are not to blame for what is happening.”

    “But I totally support Israel’s war against Hamas. I support it 100 percent, and urge everyone to support it.”

    "Imagine if the Middle East had no Hamas in it, and no extremist Islamist organizations... without a doubt our situation would be a 1,000 times better."


    Note the plain background in the video. Dalia has been forced into hiding after condemning Hamas.

  7. #2332
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Got it. Kill a bunch of people for no discernible security goal.
    I said shoot back. The disconnect between your feelings and the 25,000 rockets fired before Oct 7th, and the restraint shown by Israel while they lived under an iron dome, only proves that a compromise of any kind would be fruitless, because your real aim is the abolishment of Israel itself.

    Let me be the last to tell you, that’s not going to happen.

  8. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I said shoot back. The disconnect between your feelings and the 25,000 rockets fired before Oct 7th, and the restraint shown by Israel while they lived under an iron dome, only proves your real aim is the abolishment of Israel itself.

    Let me be the last to tell you, thatís not going to happen.
    Thatís never being my desire, nor my argument.

  9. #2334
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    Hamas refusing to allow Red Cross to check condition of hostages, already breaking the deal.

    Israel’s fault!

  10. #2335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Hamas refusing to allow Red Cross to check condition of hostages, already breaking the deal.

    Israel’s fault!
    Hamas sucks. If Israel has some technology where they snap their fingers and every Hamas member dies on the spot they should use it.
    Last edited by J. Barron DeJong; 11-23-2023 at 08:30 PM.

  11. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    Careful painting with that terrorism brush, it might cover more than you intended in this case. There are some families of kidnapped British soldiers that would like a word.

    You're going to have to make your point.

  12. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Hamas sucks. If Israel has some technology where they snap their fingers and every Hamas member dies on the spot they should use it.

    It's sad they've kept the noble Gazan bombmakers in thrall for so long.

  13. #2338
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    For the last 2 weeks I've woken up every single morning wondering if this could be the day that bloodshed could end. In Ukraine and Gaza.

    Seriously, my first though has been wondering if I would wake up to a bit more peace in those places. Even before I took my immediate morning shit. Literally right as I come to consciousness each day.

    I've come to terms with the long war as a slow deadly drain of resources of every kind, yes, people are just fungible resources, but this one baffles me and it should not.

    Israel, you voted for Netanyahu, an absolute madman; Gaza, you voted for Hamas; a death guild. Both vigorously.
    And you broadly still support them both.

    WTF did you think was going to happen... when they followed through?

    Fuck around and find out. I have zero sympathy for either states. Both are guilty as pure sin, if you believe. I don't. It's just evil.

    They will fuck each other, and I will not give one fuck. Neither side cares for peace and they will pay, in the massive deaths of their constituencies and support systems on the ground floor, as always. The elites will be spared, of course.

    So they will have death. And I will not cry one drop. Not one on either side.

    When you vote for war, and your baby dies, or your daughter or grandma gets kidnapped, or your precious grandchild, or your valued son, well, fuck you. Either stop breeding and fight, or fight for peace, then I might actually respect you as an intellectual.

    I voted, you should too.

    You get the fuckary that you give. Newton: Equal and opposite reaction.

    -----
    So when you call me, in the middle of the night this week at 4 am, a week after your girlfriend called me that you got put in jail, and you say you want to sue the cops for putting you in cuffs because they can't do that, and you tell me that you were driving without a license or current plates and the cops followed you into the gas station, watched you get out pumping gas, approached you and asked you what was up, and your girlfriend was in the passenger seat who originally said she wasn't there at all, and while your door was open saw a needle and a few baggies, and they cuffed you and asked you to give it over, which you did, and said you were going to get rid of them, then they uncuffed you and told you to go home, without a license, and you walked inside to get your change and when you reached into your pocket another bag fell out on the floor they arrested you, and you call me and tell me that you were just delivering it to another friend, don't expect me to do anything but laugh in your face. Very hardly, while your girlfriend is on the phone and I tell you to fucking take it up the ass and her too.

    It's kinda like the same situation. I can't go for that. No No.
    Last edited by MakersTeleMark; 11-24-2023 at 04:30 AM.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  14. #2339
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    It's sad they've kept the noble Gazan bombmakers in thrall for so long.
    Israel funded Hamas to prop themselves up and voted in the same person to their demise. Big brain think shit. Let them do their thing and write another chapter in their wicked books of unlove.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  15. #2340
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    Netanyahu is skilled at ending up in power. He did so with 23% of the vote, have you seen the protests over the last year?

    Hamas got 35%, in 2005, and cancelled future elections in 2007.

    Perhaps you remember when Trump won with a minority of the popular vote, how did that feel?

    People are not their governments.



    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Israel funded Hamas to prop themselves up and voted in the same person to their demise. Big brain think shit. Let them do their thing and write another chapter in their wicked books of unlove.
    Netanyahu helped prop up Hamas because he needed a baddie to justify how terrible he is. See above.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  16. #2341
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    Wiki was not my primary source, I'm just using it because it's convenient for summaries. I don't recall all of the sources. One was my father in law who was British and a teenager when the Nazis were dropping bombs on the places he lived. This very much turned British public opinion against Israel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewi...tory_Palestine. I tried over the years to defend Israel in many arguments and he wasn't having it. My point that you quoted was specifically about this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair. Although this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King..._Hotel_bombing and the assassination of this guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt...st_Baron_Moyne are also good points. Whenever someone brought up the terrorism of the PLO, etc, he would always counter that the Jewish Israelis were the original terrorists. I thought he was wrong, "terrorism" and guerilla warfare have always been somewhat indistinguishable. Be aware when painting with the terrorist label brush in regards to Israel and Palestine. All terrorism should be condemned.

  17. #2342
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    Whenever someone brought up the terrorism of the PLO, etc, he would always counter that the Jewish Israelis were the original terrorists. I thought he was wrong, "terrorism" and guerilla warfare have always been somewhat indistinguishable. Be aware when painting with the terrorist label brush in regards to Israel and Palestine. All terrorism should be condemned.
    In terms of morality all terrorism should be condemned. Everything about it is horrible. Even before the British took over every time Arabs at the time, now Palestinians, did something horrible to Jews people pointed out something horrible that the Jews did. Jewish terrorism against the British however was similar to Irish terrorism against the British. It was about ending the rule of a foreign empire in order to create a democratic nation-state. Yet there's a paradox with the Palestinian cause where people motivated by morality prevent a similar diplomatic solution.

    Countries and people doing bad things is not a unique character trait of Jews and Palestinians. What’s unique about Palestinians, and Palestinian terrorism, is that it's born from a mythology of a place that never existed on a map until the British drew some lines on a map. What existed before British mapmakers started drawing lines were villages in the Middle East. There were no Arab or Ottoman maps with a key for Palestinians. There were only dots on a map with Jewish villages and Arab villages.

    So the thing that makes Palestinian terrorism unique is that it's not about territorial liberation or creating a free Palestinian homeland, but instead it's about removing the Jewish presence from the Middle East. But because Israel is now so strong—in the past when they were weak Jews had a culture of martyrdom too—it's an aimless useless struggle. Palestinians are fighting and engaging in terrorist acts to achieve an impossible goal. They're never going to kick the Jews out of their ancestral homeland like the Jews kicked the British empire out of Israel.

    As was the Southern Cause in America, the Palestinian cause is a lost cause. It's pointless terrorism like the pointless terrorism during reconstruction era America when it was believed "The South Will Rise Again." Supporting this particular cause goes well beyond unfair to the point of absolute cruelty. For people to chant "from the river to the sea" in support of a pointless fight is incredibly cruel. It's not the seemingly moderate voices in the West who are paying the price for this cruelty, it's the Palestinians in Gaza who are making a horrible blood sacrifice for nothing.

  18. #2343
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    Instead of a war time boost, Bibiís career is coming to an abrupt ending when this is done.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/electi...-smotrich-out/

    ďElection poll shows Gantz at 43 seats, Netanyahuís Likud at 18, Smotrich out

    If elections were to be held in Israel today, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrichís Religious Zionism party would fail to win the 3.25 percent vote minimum to enter the Knesset, a poll published on Thursday night has found.Ē

    woot
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  19. #2344
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  20. #2345
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    Twenty-five hostages have been freed.

  22. #2347
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Menachem Begin has entered the terrorism chat
    It's got to be frustrating for all the Muslim suicide bombers hanging out in Hell with Begin talking about the lack of virgins.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  23. #2348
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Israel funded Hamas to prop themselves up and voted in the same person to their demise. Big brain think shit. Let them do their thing and write another chapter in their wicked books of unlove.

    Work permits and allowing in suitcases full of zakat from all the little Islamic children who gave their lunch money to burn Israel... does not constitute "Israel Funding Hamas" in the active indicative sense you've been cucked to believe, o bearer of false witness.

    As such, your moral judgements can be disregarded out of hand.

  24. #2349
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Twenty-five hostages have been freed.
    Time to suck Hamas' dicks in happiness. "See how awesome those Palestinians really are!! [swoon]"

  25. #2350
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Menachem Begin has entered the terrorism chat
    It's got to be frustrating for all the Muslim suicide bombers hanging out in Hell with Begin talking about the lack of virgins.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

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