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  1. #4126
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    50 years to the day

    You have been smoking way too many of your own farts if you think that is anywhere near objectively true. Your sounding as delusional as Leroy now lol

    Now your arguing about shit that’s not in argument. Just like Leroy. Get a grip. Hamas sucks. Israel sucks. ESH.

  2. #4127
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    Saying it does not make it not so. Hamas supporters in America like you are living in a post-History reality while Hamas exists in a real ethnic tribal History. There's the online myths you believe to be true, and a real world 'out there' that exists independently. It's like you're watching two different movies.

    Since Oslo in 2000, Israel handed over Gaza in 2005, attempted the Olmert talks in 2008, and Kerry talks in 2014 along with various European talks. Israel agreed to abandon most of the West Bank settlements during negotiations in 2000, 2001, 2007, and 2008. Israeli settlers opposed all of it of course, but moderate Israelis controlled the Knesset at the time. So there is no need to know anything about either or ‘both sides’ to realize that when the weaker side rejects every offer a diplomatic solution won't work. Because in reality diplomacy has the opposite effect. Palestinians believe violence will lead to better terms because of the perverse incentives associated with past peace process experience.

  3. #4128
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    50 years to the day

    I think certain Israelis or their defenders believe that because they know Israel was created through violence and terrorism. There’s some projection there no doubt. Doesn’t make it true that majorities believe Israeli is ever gonna cease to exist.

  4. #4129
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    Hard to follow the logic when the first Jewish Monarchy in Israel was established more than three thousand years ago while Palestinian Arab nationalism didn't arise until the 1920s, in response to Jews legally purchasing land, and weren't commonly referred to as “Palestinians” until 1968?

  5. #4130
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Palestinians believe violence will lead to better terms because of the perverse incentives associated with past peace process experience.
    Well, now they believe that violence is coming for them no matter what. So they can either laydown and be killed, or try to fight back against the people forcing them out of their homes at the threat of bombs, and then bombing them where they try to find refuge.

    Is israel trying to break the will of hamas? Do they really think that is realistic? Or do they not care? Bouncing the rubble is the easiest, most simple way to suppress hamas and keep Israeli's safe in the short term. But it is also inhumane to palestinian civilians, and is turning the rest of the world against israel.

  6. #4131
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    Israel has offered peace terms. Hamas rejected them. Hamas could at any point surrender and release the hostages and the war would be over. No matter how just a person believes in the Palestinian cause, goals matter and tactics matter.

  7. #4132
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    50 years to the day

    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    I think certain Israelis or their defenders believe that because they know Israel was created through violence and terrorism. There’s some projection there no doubt. Doesn’t make it true that majorities believe Israeli is ever gonna cease to exist.
    I disagree with your premise. With the rejection of the partition plan there was a war started by first the Arab population in the mandate and then Israel’s neighbors that gave it its borders.

    As to whether the majority thinks Israel will cease to exist, the majority of Palestinians support armed struggle according to this one day old poll:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-s...-double-fatahs

    “Support for armed struggle is also on the rise, registering an overall eight-point increase compared to March. Armed struggle is considered by a little over half of Palestinians (54%) to be the preferred option to end Israeli rule and establish a Palestinian state, while only a quarter chose negotiations, and 16% opted for “nonviolent resistance.”

    Whether you agree with this brand new poll or not is irrelevant - everyone agrees there needs to be a political solution to end the war to undercut Hamas - except maybe a good chunk of the active participants of the war (on both sides)?

    It’s a frustrating sideline to be sure.

    anyway, going back to 48 or thousands of years ago doesn’t solve today’s problems but if people were better informed it wouldn’t hurt either.
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  8. #4133
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    50 years to the day

    I think that was my point. A political solution and a campaign for hearts and minds is the only answer here. Israeli is a long way past responding to 10/7 with no added benefit and is effectively bouncing rubble as collective punishment

  9. #4134
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Israel has offered peace terms. Hamas rejected them. Hamas could at any point surrender and release the hostages and the war would be over. No matter how just a person believes in the Palestinian cause, goals matter and tactics matter.
    Hamas rejected the terms. Not Palestinians.

    We have both said over and over that hamas benefits from ongoing hostilities (hell, hamas even said it). It allows them to continue framing Israel as the aggressor and the enemy that needs to be fought. Israel isnt losing much in the short term by continuing to bounce rubble. So the only people being harmed right now are palestinian civilians.

  10. #4135
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    Hamas's military strength is being degraded. Hamas has served the people of Gaza about as well as the Nazi party served the Germans in WWII. It diverted a significant part of the huge aid flows to the world's most privileged and only perpetual refugees to build its futile underground fortifications. Hamas now immiserates Gaza.

    Hamas is not a terrorist insurgency. This is not guerilla warfare. This is complex urban combat against an entrenched organized military. Four Israeli hostages were not released, they were rescued by special forces from a genocidal barbaric government. The IDF is fighting underground warfare unprecedented in scale and complexity.

    Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. They started this war with more than forty thousand militants. Tens of thousands of rockets. Four hundred miles of tunnels some hundreds of feet under ground. Hamas amassed a massive arsenal of small arms, RPGs, anti-air/anti-armor missiles, mortars mines & IEDs, all stockpiled and prepared in a defensive posture for the past several decades.

    Saying Hamas can't be defeated is like saying the Nazis couldn't be defeated. It's true Nazi ideology still exists today, but Hitler was removed from power. Hamas's Yahya Sinwar can/could be removed from power.

  11. #4136
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    How does hamas lose this war, short of a full takeover of gaza, and removal of all palestinians from gaza? And even then, is that really hamas losing, or is that them winning in many ways? Everytime israel whacks 2 hamas moles (and kills 2+civilians), 1 more hamas pops up somewhere else, and 2 gazan civilians start supporting hamas as revenge for their killed civilian family members.


    the only way i see hamas truly losing is if the palestinian people turn against hamas... and with Israels current strategy i dont see that happening. I think more focus needs to be on the propoganda war, and doing whatever can be done to foment and foster whatever anti-hamas sentiment there is in gaza.


    What you're saying is that all of Palestine is Hamas, and they're all drinking the blood of 10/7.

    You probably aren't supposed to say that for a few more months, but that's what you're saying: The innocent Palestinian is a myth.

  12. #4137
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    It is objectively true. The majority of Palestinians want to see the complete destruction of Israel. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2006. After that, Gazans elected Hamas. There was even a ceasefire in Gaza until October 7th. The absence of a painful response after October 7 would have encouraged Israel's enemies in the region to join Hamas' campaign.

    And no, it does not justify violence against the majority of Palestinians. 'Collective Punishment' is legal term. It means punishment imposed on a group for actions committed by somebody else. The canonical example is when axis armies would round up everyone in a village and execute them for actions taken by the resistance.

    It is not the same thing as an army striking adversaries under typical acts of war even though people conflate to two conceptually. A person can debate whether blowing up a building housing terrorists or with tunnel underneath is collective punishment, but that begs the question whether any military action is so called punishment and why normal acts of war undertaken by other countries aren't labelled collective punishment.
    Kind of disingenuous, which is par ffor the course for you.

    Israels withdrawal from gaza is not as simple as you make it sound. They still walled off gaza and created an apartheid state checkpoints etc etc.

    You speak as if gazans had nothing to complain about during that time and palestinians just want to do a genocide. One, they aren't capable of being an existential threat to israel. Two, there were tons of human rights abuses being perpetrated by the IDF during thattime.

    Acting like one side has some well defined moral high ground is insanity.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
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    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  13. #4138
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    What you're saying is that all of Palestine is Hamas, and they're all drinking the blood of 10/7.

    You probably aren't supposed to say that for a few more months, but that's what you're saying: The innocent Palestinian is a myth.
    So what you're saying, is that palestinian children, every single last one down to the youngest, took part in 10/7?

    Really?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  14. #4139
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Israel has offered peace terms. Hamas rejected them. Hamas could at any point surrender and release the hostages and the war would be over. No matter how just a person believes in the Palestinian cause, goals matter and tactics matter.
    Yea and the same can be said for israel. No matter how much one feels for them tactics matter and goals matter.

    but only one way right?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  15. #4140
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    Ibid, the majority of Palestinians want to see the complete destruction of Israel. Israel chooses not to acquiesce.

    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    Israels withdrawal from gaza is not as simple as you make it sound. They still walled off gaza and created an apartheid state checkpoints etc etc.
    Nonsense. Israel built a fence plus other defensive measures along its border with Gaza due to the very real threat of invasion. Otherwise, Hamas had complete internal control after it won elections and won the civil war with Fatah. Israel did not attempt to embargo weapons into Gaza until after Hamas began its attacks on Israel. Gaza also shares a border with Egypt making it impossible to 'wall off' up until only a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, TikTok has left Leroy badly informed about history and geography.

  16. #4141
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Well, now they believe that violence is coming for them no matter what. So they can either laydown and be killed, or try to fight back against the people forcing them out of their homes at the threat of bombs, and then bombing them where they try to make war on Israel.

    Don't make war on Israel.

  17. #4142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    I think certain Israelis or their defenders believe that because they know Israel was created through violence and terrorism. There’s some projection there no doubt. Doesn’t make it true that majorities believe Israeli is ever gonna cease to exist.


    Projection in the service of circular reasoning and bothsides whataboutism in the further enablement of sexual violence and kidnappings as politics -

    Not gonna undo 10/7

  18. #4143
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    So what you're saying, is that palestinian children, every single last one down to the youngest, took part in 10/7?

    Really?
    Noo. That's californiagrown, who can't see how Hamas can lose since every Palestinian unto the fourth generation will take up the scimitar of jihad against Israel as long as they live since Israel is being so mean after 10/7.

  19. #4144
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    I think certain Israelis or their defenders believe that because they know Israel was created through violence and terrorism. There’s some projection there no doubt.
    What violence and terrorism was Israel created out of? Did you mean WW1 and British Imperialism, the Holocaust, or the Arab attempt to exterminate the UN sanctioned nascent Jewish state?

    Or did you mean when the Jews came 3500 years ago? How and when did the Arabs come to be there? The conquering Arab invasion occurred 1385 years ago, after Mohammed died. The Holy Lands then remained sparsely populated until waves of immigration in the 1920s.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  20. #4145
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Noo. That's californiagrown, who can't see how Hamas can lose since every Palestinian unto the fourth generation will take up the scimitar of jihad against Israel as long as they live since Israel is being so mean after 10/7.
    Blowback. It’s going to get ugly.
    Not just Gaza. But all over the Muslim world.
    Enjoy the terrorist attacks.
    They are coming.
    10/7 sucked. But the response is insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    What violence and terrorism was Israel created out of? Did you mean WW1 and British Imperialism, the Holocaust, or the Arab attempt to exterminate the UN sanctioned nascent Jewish state?

    Or did you mean when the Jews came 3500 years ago? How and when did the Arabs come to be there? The conquering Arab invasion occurred 1385 years ago, after Mohammed died. The Holy Lands then remained sparsely populated until waves of immigration in the 1920s.
    Well said. Historical knowledge.

    The irony of fighting over desert sand is amazing. But it’s “holy” land.
    I’ve just decided to be a middle aged somewhat depressed somewhat anxious fucktard until the end.

  21. #4146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Blowback. It’s going to get ugly.
    Not just Gaza. But all over the Muslim world.
    Enjoy the terrorist attacks.
    They are coming.
    You're almost 23 years late with that one bro.



    10/7 sucked. But the response is insane.
    Compared to 12/7, it's quite measured.





    Well said. Historical knowledge.

    The irony of fighting over desert sand is amazing. But it’s “holy” land.
    Thank you for explaining the spiritual origin of Hamas tunnels.

  22. #4147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Enjoy the terrorist attacks.
    They are coming.


    Is that a threat?

    Or merely a prediction based on the last 100 years of Palestinian ethics?

    Are they coming to chastise the innocent to protest collective punishment?

    Or merely to put on a show of their destructive capabilities?


    Just asking questions.

  23. #4148
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    What you're saying is that all of Palestine is Hamas, and they're all drinking the blood of 10/7.

    You probably aren't supposed to say that for a few more months, but that's what you're saying: The innocent Palestinian is a myth.
    I appreciate your ill-intended attempt at putting words in my mouth.

    Lots of innocent palestinians (specifically the children, but many others as well). And many others who do want to fight back against Israel do not condone the more disgusting acts of 10/7.


    Israels actions over the last 5ish months, and their plan going forward only creates blood enemies amongst Palestinians and muslims in general that they will have to continue to fight in perpetuity. Nothing positive is happening because of what Israel is doing- just more people dying and suffering, and more blood enemies being created. What other option does a gazan see right now besides fighting back for survival? And what option does Israel have for peace in gaza besides killing all who present a threat. Its a positive feedback loop that Israel keeps adding momentum to.

  24. #4149
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Israels actions over the last 5ish months, and their plan going forward only creates blood enemies amongst Palestinians and muslims
    Inciting a huge response was Hamas's plan. Worsening the emnity was the goal. They want dead Jews and no Israel. It was also Iran's plan in order to stop Israel from.making peace with KSA and UAE.

    And yet, Israel's response was more measured and limited than would have been any other country's response to an Oct 7 style attack.

    And yet Israel receives nothing but grief and hate because they are expected to be not just better than any other country, but better than themselves in a whole unrealistic sense.

    Meanwhile, the bigotry of low expectations excuses the Palestinians.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  25. #4150
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I appreciate your ill-intended attempt at putting words in my mouth.

    Lots of innocent palestinians (specifically the children, but many others as well). And many others who do want to fight back against Israel do not condone the more disgusting acts of 10/7.

    Oh now you speak for them all?





    Israels actions over the last 5ish months, and their existence only creates blood enemies amongst Palestinians and muslims in general that they will have to continue to fight in perpetuity.

    Yeah, that's what you've been saying.

    But there's nothing Israel can do about that, except maybe all run into the sea and kill themselves so Palestinians don't have to do it to them.

    So knock off the fucking threats douchebag. You, shaking your fist at us in the name of Palestinian evil, have made them too many times.

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