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  1. #2651
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Perhaps they can find a more ideologically malleable windsock he'll like better.
    One can only hope.

  2. #2652
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I think he's talking about Jews returning to their homeland from mostly Europe in the late 40s.
    Rod has been corrected on this point multiple times and yet he still keeps making the same false statements: most of the Jews in Israel are of Middle East, North African, or Central Asian descent. More Jews were displaced from their homes in the Middle East than Arabs were displaced in Israel. More Jews immigrated to Israel from the Middle East and Africa in the late 40s early 50s than from Europe. Most European Jews came from Eastern Europe. There was an order of magnitude fewer from Western Europe. Only about 30,000 Jews emigrated from Western Europe in the late 40s & 50s. It shouldn't take much imagination to figure out why that was the case.

    Folks would have a better understanding of Israeli politics if they recognized the Mizrahi perspective because Mizrahi see themselves as a displaced people too:.

    https://twitter.com/Red54751164/stat...46964923764955

  3. #2653
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    50 years to the day

    Israel passed a right of return law for Jews in 1950

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by mcski; 12-09-2023 at 10:08 PM.

  4. #2654
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    While many were forcibly removed in the 1947-8 civil and Arab war, most of the Arabs at the time left Israel because they didn't want to live under majority Jewish rule. Those who stayed are today's Israeli-Arabs.

  5. #2655
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    50 years to the day

    That’s some serious spin of the Nakba and ignores the terrorism inflicted both during and after the war. It was a lot more of a safety issue than just a bunch of Archie BunkerArafats leaving because they didn’t like the new regime

  6. #2656
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    It's not spin at all because we've covered this point many times in this thread. Both sides committed atrocities. Both sides displaced the other. If Arabs had won the war they started they would have killed or removed all the Jews from Israel, or at least that's what they said at the time. The Nakba is a retelling of that loss popularized fifty years later on the anniversary in 1998 to change the story from aggressor, when seven Arab countries declared war on Israel, to victims of forced displacement.

  7. #2657
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    That doesn’t make them any less of a victim. In their view the aggressor was the new state of Israel and people getting pushed out of their properties. Regardless, most were non combatant war refugees driven out by dangerous war zones and terrorism

  8. #2658
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    True, many were driven out by Arab armies to clear a path into Israel. Before Arab nations declared war on Israel in 1948, Arabs in Israel/Palestine declared war in 1947.

  9. #2659
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    And after the war Israeli we kept them out and pushed out more w terrorism and harassment

    I think the Arabs view it as a defensive war and the creation of Israeli was the “attack”

  10. #2660
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    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    Or worse.

    I believe there are people in Israel who welcomed this war. Did any of those people know about the impending attacks and choose not to do anything but make some money is the question.

    Hamas definitely had intel on Israeli defenses, facilities etc. that couldn't have been gleaned by some guy picking olives. Where did they get that info?
    If Madoff was still around you could ask him about screwing his fellow Jews.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  11. #2661
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    While many were forcibly removed in the 1947-8 civil and Arab war, most of the Arabs at the time left Israel because they didn't want to live under majority Jewish rule. Those who stayed are today's Israeli-Arabs.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    That’s some serious spin of the Nakba and ignores the terrorism inflicted both during and after the war. It was a lot more of a safety issue than just a bunch of Archie BunkerArafats leaving because they didn’t like the new regime
    No spin:

    1M arabs in Israel in the beginning 1947
    Partition voted down by Arabs civil war ensues.

    300k at the end of 48 (now 2.2M Israelis)

    700k left
    - ~500k left to avoid the war (fear of violence by far the biggest reason, most thought they would simply return after war)
    - ~200k expelled

    Did these people get fucked? Sure. War sucks. Sucks worse when it could have been completely avoided by agreeing to partition. There was no scheme to deport arabs, it was supposed to be multiculti and anyone who says otherwise is repeating propaganda.

    Shit changed with the violence of the war.

    btw in addition to the Mizrahi immigrants, in the immediate aftermath of the civil war, Jordan takes control of the west bank and evicts 70k Jews from the hills and every resident of the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem. I do my best to stick to the facts and in most moments try not to let my emotions or anger cloud my judgement, but this ^ is annoying. Jews lose everything in Europe, Rod wants to send them back. Lose everything in Baghdad, Tehran, Casablanca, go home. Lose everything in the west bank or where they'd been forever in Jerusalem, still too bad. But the ethnic cleansing is ok when it's the other guys.

    War is not good for fixing problems but the thing about the Nakba is what I posted earlier from The Atlantic. It was only a catastrophe because they thought they'd get an easy violent win instead of a political peace, and everyone got fucked from it.

    As far as the "right of return" goes, it was supposed to be negotiated at the armistice when the war ended. And then the next war. Then the war after that. But it simply proved too useful for the neighboring countries to use the Palestinians as a wedge rather than even bother to negotiate a peace because it was always "we'll get you next time".

    Something shifts after 1967, maybe too much winning, maybe the socialist and leftist parties starting to fade as precursors to Likud get popular, maybe the occupation rots the soul of the country. Occupation is not good and they have an imperative to be creative and figure out how to end this shit already.

    You'd probably do better to read some Benny Morris than watch me try to distill it, but the Nakba myth is the same shit as 4 generations of "refugees", neither factual nor helpful.


    https://www.city-journal.org/article...akba-obsession


    ETA since you kept posting

    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    n their view the aggressor was the new state of Israel and people getting pushed out of their properties. Regardless, most were non combatant war refugees driven out by dangerous war zones and terrorism
    I think you are conflating a lot of things that are not factual. A minority of people were pushed out (still a big total number). Rich people left because they had means. Most of the rest (noncombatants) left during the fighting rather than be in a war of survival (Jews were faced with extermination and were fighting like hell). Some left to clear the battlefield because they were promised spoils, some left just because they were advised to clear. Finally others fought to prevent the new state. It was a really complicated time and neither repeating Zionist creationist myths or Nakba myths does anyone favors.

    Also yes, people who lost homes were victims despite everything I do agree.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  12. #2662
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiballs View Post
    If Madoff was still around you could ask him about screwing his fellow Jews.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    conning people is about trust. trust can sometimes be related to tribalism. are you implying something else?
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  13. #2663
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    That’s some serious spin of the Nakba and ignores the terrorism inflicted both during and after the war. It was a lot more of a safety issue than just a bunch of Archie BunkerArafats leaving because they didn’t like the new regime
    You sound like a confident expert. What happened to the Christians who used to live in the area?

  14. #2664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    I have not really read much in here. I feel that America's as a whole is beginning to lose patience with Israel. Considering the average attention span, seems about right.

    Why is it that every problem in your world always boils down to "Both Sides Are The Same"?


    Could it be that you're just lazy as fuck?

  15. #2665
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    Could it be that you are just dumb as fuck?

    Thanks for the reminder why I should not bother.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  16. #2666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Could it be that you are just dumb as fuck?

    Thanks for the reminder why I should not bother.

    Does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by you? Does it need to be said by you, here, now?



    Bro if all you can do with your vast smooth brain surface is share how everything is always the same, that you don't see differences or distinctions... You're not really contributing as much as complaining that you are not being entertained.

  17. #2667
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    Ceasefire.
    Release the hostages.
    No
    Boom!
    Ceasefire!
    Stop the rockets.
    No
    BOOM!
    WTF

  18. #2668
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    Ceasefire.
    Release the hostages.
    No
    Boom!
    Ceasefire!
    Stop the rockets.
    No
    BOOM!
    WTF
    You're just going to a festie with your buds. Osama bin Laden shows up and his crew starts cutting parts off your GF as a religious political statement.

    Is it all the same? No it is not.

  19. #2669
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    What the fuck are you talking about?

  20. #2670
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    Little green men
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  21. #2671
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    What the fuck are you talking about?


    10/7. The BothSides nihilist crew that has completely forgotten why these terrible bombings and Palestinian suffering are going on - a bunch of Palestinian bucks flew out of their shithole and started machinegunning and raping and setting innocent grommies on fire because they can't tolerate a Jewish nation in the ummah.

    And the ones here who were wagging their fingers at Israel for being attacked and second-guessing what Israel shouldn't do before first responders had even arrived at some of the 10/7 kill zones.
    And are still bringing the Pally apologetics as a key component of their core lefty identity and won't admit the nasty fucks have it coming for the last 100 years of semirandom hijackings and bombings and beheadings and kidnappings in the name of Palestine.

    And the "I'm a humanitarian even when those humans willingly bring their suffering on themselves and there should be a ceasefire in Ukraine too even when it rewards the worst antihumans - I can't be expected to make any distinctions because war is bad for children and other living things and I'm a human, so lalala"

    meh


    But yeah, it was a Reddit moment. Nobody pays attention to Reddit usernames. But here on TGR you're one of the few who can see straight and I'm sorry to intimate otherwise.

  22. #2672
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    What the fuck are you talking about?
    He thinks arabs are the same as Palestinians are the same as Hamas, are the same as al queda. He explained that a few pages back, which is when I stopped engaging.

  23. #2673
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    meh

    sorry to intimate otherwise.
    We're good. I don't do reddit so I missed the analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    He thinks arabs are the same as Palestinians are the same as Hamas, are the same as al queda. He explained that a few pages back, which is when I stopped engaging.
    You'll probably find me on the same side of that fence. They all want me dead so they can pretty much all go fuck themselves.

  24. #2674
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    We're good. I don't do reddit so I missed the analogy.



    You'll probably find me on the same side of that fence. They all want me dead so they can pretty much all go fuck themselves.
    Not just you, any non believer.

  25. #2675
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    He thinks arabs are the same as Palestinians are the same as Hamas, are the same as al queda. He explained that a few pages back, which is when I stopped engaging.

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