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  1. #2626
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    There are 17 young women still being held hostage by Hamas. Hamas won't free them because they've been treated so horrifically Hamas doesn't want them to tell their story. Everyone should know exactly what that means. The woman with the blood stained pants discussed earlier in this thread, when people disputed allegations Hamas was systematically raping Israeli women, is one them. Hamas sliced her Achilles so she couldn't run away. That's why she was hobbled in the video.

    One of the most appalling discussions swirling around is rape deniers saying it didn't happen because the women didn't testify to sexual assault after being executed by a gunshot to the back of the head. The United Nations and feminist organizations still refuse to thoroughly condemn violence against Jewish women because well, was the dead, stripped-naked woman with the broken pelvis who eyewitnesses saw brutalized really raped? Were the first responders witness accounts of teenage girls at the Nova rave site being gang raped actually true?

    Hamas denies that its fighters used rape or assault against women as a weapon of war. So we've gone from “believe all women” to “well, Hamas says it didn't happen and I believe them." Even though there are videos of Hamas themselves doing it, forensic evidence, along with testimony from women & witnesses—many people are still denying any of it happened.


    Unrelated: It seems the study discussed earlier suggesting short sellers knew about the Hamas massacre on 10/7 contains a huge error. The researchers did not realize Tel Aviv Stock Exchange shares are quoted in agorot not shekels. That caused a hundred-fold overstatement of trading profits.
    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-h...ers-1001464098

  2. #2627
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    50 years to the day

    Quote Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker View Post
    any idea of kumbaya pre-48 is not real. before the civil war almost all massacres were by arabs against jews.

    then you have centuries of history of dhimmi taxes and pogroms in muslim lands before and after.

    i don’t say this to excuse the treatment of palestinians now, its not right to occupy lands and create different classes of rights, but people need to be real about the history and how we got here too.

    even the arab rebellion against the british 33-36 is totally forgotten about by people today who think violence in mandate palestine consisted of one king david bombing.
    I’m skeptical and pessimistic about a Kumbaya relationship as well - especially because of the trainwreck that currently passes as Palestinian government and leadership.

    But, if Hutus and Tutsis can reconcile, anything is possible given the right leadership. Much of the anti Palestinian rhetoric reminds me a lot of the early 80s white apartheid argument against black rights/rule. It took a leader of Mandela’s stature to change strategies for it to happen without carnage. That transition was no less unlikely than Jews and Palestinians hugging it out

    Either Israel figures out a way to give the Palestinians a viable and autonomous state or they formally annex the WB and Gaza.

    If Israel can engage a peace talks w the Saudis, even a deal w Hamas is not impossible at some point

  3. #2628
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    I think your math is off

    Approx 7 million Jews in Israel vs 5M Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Add the ones w Israeli citizenship already and the Jews still have a small majority.
    Do you honestly believe a modern Palestinian nation would actually allow the Jews to remain in place if that theoretical scenario ever happened?

  4. #2629
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post

    Jews and Muslims lived together before Isreal so there’s that.
    any idea of kumbaya pre-48 is not real. before the civil war almost all massacres were by arabs against jews.

    then you have centuries of history of dhimmi taxes and pogroms in muslim lands before and after.

    i don’t say this to excuse the treatment of palestinians now, its not right to occupy lands and create different classes of rights, but people need to be real about the history and how we got here too.

    even the arab rebellion against the british 33-36 is totally forgotten about by people today who think violence in mandate palestine consisted of one king david bombing.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  5. #2630
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    You are forgetting 4-5M additional Palestinian "refugees" (descendants) outside of Israel/WB/Gaza claiming the "right to return," an insane point on which the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate. Even if you magic that problem away, such a state would become majority Palestinian in a few years anyway. Remember Gaza has increased 50% in population in 17 years despite its difficult circumstances.
    Didn’t forget, just didn’t include them because it wasn’t the argument. But ya, some type of right of return is going to happen at some point if Israel truly wants peace. It’s not insane for people to want to go back to where they are from. It’s gonna happen on some level and israel needs to figure out a way to do it

  6. #2631
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    One of the most appalling discussions swirling around is rape deniers saying it didn't happen because the women didn't testify to sexual assault after being executed by a gunshot to the back of the head. The United Nations and feminist organizations still refuse to thoroughly condemn violence against Jewish women because well, was the dead, stripped-naked woman with the broken pelvis who eyewitnesses saw brutalized really raped? Were the first responders witness accounts of teenage girls at the Nova rave site being gang raped actually true?

    Hamas denies that its fighters used rape or assault against women as a weapon of war. So we've gone from from “believe all women” to “well, Hamas says it didn't happen and I believe them." Even though there are videos of Hamas themselves doing it, forensic evidence, along with testimony from women & witnesses—many people are still denying any of it happened.
    Seriously! WTF is up with that?


  7. #2632
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    My dear, jono. You cannot project your Western moral philosophy upon a culture that has a deep seated hatred of the Jewish people. No matter how uncomfortable it is to admit, THEY DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU AND I DO! Not trying to "other" them. It's the truth. Not everybody around the world.... 3x10˛⁴
    The conversation on "context" is with respect to American students and universities. Your videos and comments appear to be about completely different people. Try to hang onto the thread.

    But again, thank you for posting proof that you know context is important.

  8. #2633
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    Yeah, Dartmouth demonstrated a better way to handle this debate. Dartmouth organized campus forums about the crisis allowing students to pose tough questions to both Jewish and Middle East lecturers. This is what I envision when arguing for free speech on campus, not speech where one side tries to shout down the other. The Dartmouth segment starts at 9 minutes.


  9. #2634
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Either Israel figures out a way to give the Palestinians a viable and autonomous state or they formally annex the WB and Gaza.

    If Israel can engage a peace talks w the Saudis, even a deal w Hamas is not impossible at some point
    this is the crux of it, huh? because if Israel wants security and a clean conscience of not occupying another people, it is on them to figure out how to become imaginative and a way forward.

    unfortunately it has not happened. arabs said no to partition and launched a war in 47.

    67 the territories were acquired (a war israel didn’t start).

    78 egypt plan - no
    2000 barak plan - no
    2010 olmert plan - no

    now you have likud and a terrified and traumatized populace, a large amount of which thinks the whole thing should be theirs
    and could give two shits about ethnic cleansing or apartheid (maybe 30% of israel). the base of support is mizrahi who were previously traumatized and religious dipshits that believe in a world created in six days.

    the PA was happy to get rich before on the process as hamas is now but you have a lot of people on the palestinian side who believe the land is all theirs and that martyrdom is honorable etc.

    it’s really hard to see an end of the misery.

    as far as annexation goes formally, i still think it would just mean civil war so i don’t really bother discussing one state. so much enmity, what would happen when two dipshit settlers go murdering, not to mention the fact that there are an equal number of murderous hordes on the other side (it was already a bloody year with shootings, stabbings, and ramming attacks from palestinians before October).

    I think in the last round of negotiations there was an agreed upon right of return number that was symbolic, but palestinians were outraged when it leaked. the gravy train for 4 generations of “refugees” is ridiculous though and they’ll measure any compensation against that status quo.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  10. #2635
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    50 years to the day

    I tend to agree with all that.

    The only thing that’s gonna move the needle is creating jobs and prosperity in the WB and Gaza. Until, then there is an endless supply of pissed off poor people w bad options. How that happens, I have no idea but definitely gonna need a leadership change on both sides first

  11. #2636
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    Quote Originally Posted by east or bust View Post
    Re: From the river to the sea… How’s that working out for Palestinians right now? They might wanna drop the rhetoric next go around


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    You're right, not working so well for Palestinians right now, as it didn't work well at all since Israel was formed in 1948

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

  12. #2637
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    You are forgetting 4-5M additional Palestinian "refugees" (descendants) outside of Israel/WB/Gaza claiming the "right to return," an insane point on which the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate. Even if you magic that problem away, such a state would become majority Palestinian in a few years anyway. Remember Gaza has increased 50% in population in 17 years despite its difficult circumstances.
    So?

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  13. #2638
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    You're right, not working so well for Palestinians right now, as it didn't work well at all since Israel was formed in 1948
    Israel's per capita GDP is higher than Germany's per capita GDP. There will never be a way forward if people don't stop arguing the creation of Israel was a crime.

  14. #2639
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    You are forgetting 4-5M additional Palestinian "refugees" (descendants) outside of Israel/WB/Gaza claiming the "right to return," an insane point on which the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate. Even if you magic that problem away, such a state would become majority Palestinian in a few years anyway. Remember Gaza has increased 50% in population in 17 years despite its difficult circumstances.
    To be clear, I am not for Palestinian "right of return" for the descendants. I am mixed, but leaning against, that right for those in the 0 gen who left especially if a two state solution can be achieved. All that is preface for my question: why is a Jewish right of return any different than a "Palestinian" right of return?

  15. #2640
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    Because they are Jewish. Duh.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  16. #2641
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    ^Revealing

    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    All that is preface for my question: why is a Jewish right of return any different than a "Palestinian" right of return?
    What Jewish right of return? Jews aren't trying to return to Gaza after being dragged out by their own government.

    Are you talking about all the refugees who fled to Israel from around the world, but mostly from Muslim countries, communist nations, and former Nazi occupied Europe? Jews aren't demanding the right to return to those places.

    Are you talking about Israel's right to manage their immigration policy?

    Are you talking about Israel even existing at all as a safe haven for Jews?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  17. #2642
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    UPenn board of trustees met. Result: UPenn President McGill and Board President Bok will fall on their swords.

    I thought this discussion was pretty good about how a strange focus on being obtuse and needlessly legalistic, steered by lawyers selling the idea in an (DEI) echo chamber, led to the travesty of testimony that occurred. The interviewee is a communications guy who coaches people for congressional appearances).


    IMO anyone could see the questions they were asked were bound to be asked. They were expected to anyone with half a brain. The problem is the Ivy administrator echo chamber got a little used to smelling their own farts and thought their answers would be no big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #2643
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    5min Good WSJ Piece
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  19. #2644
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    UPenn board of trustees met. Result: UPenn President McGill and Board President Bok will fall on their swords.

    I thought this discussion was pretty good about how a strange focus on being obtuse and needlessly legalistic, steered by lawyers selling the idea in an (DEI) echo chamber, led to the travesty of testimony that occurred. The interviewee is a communications guy who coaches people for congressional appearances).


    IMO anyone could see the questions they were asked were bound to be asked. They were expected to anyone with half a brain. The problem is the Ivy administrator echo chamber got a little used to smelling their own farts and thought their answers would be no big deal.
    They’ve been hung by their own rope sure, but the whole thing just feels like a witch hunt to appease an angry mob. Nothing about getting these folks kicked out is changing hearts and minds, at least not in the direction you seem to think they are.

  20. #2645
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    Nothing about getting these folks kicked out is changing hearts and minds
    I hope you are wrong but I think you are right.

    I do have some small hope that this does illustrate the much large higher ed issue, which is not a Hamas/Israel thing: current trend of what ideologically malleable windsocks university administrators have become, which is a huge problem for universities in general as institutions of higher learning.

    The other greater higher ed issue I see is repeatedly mentioned in this thread: biased application of questionable rulesets on campuses. The issue I see is that campus free speech issues have gotten so bad because of the uneven application of rulesets which have allowed some sides to focus on bullying, harassment, and violence dressed up as "protests" as the test of "free speech" used by the favored groups while the unfavored groups are subject to those treatments to silence them when attempting to participate in more traditional and peaceful forms of speech like a speech, a forum, or a debate.

    It is quite the quandary.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #2646
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    ^Revealing



    What Jewish right of return? Jews aren't trying to return to Gaza after being dragged out by their own government.

    Are you talking about all the refugees who fled to Israel from around the world, but mostly from Muslim countries, communist nations, and former Nazi occupied Europe? Jews aren't demanding the right to return to those places.

    Are you talking about Israel's right to manage their immigration policy?

    Are you talking about Israel even existing at all as a safe haven for Jews?
    I think he's talking about Jews returning to their homeland from mostly Europe in the late 40s.

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  22. #2647
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    They’ve been hung by their own rope sure, but the whole thing just feels like a witch hunt to appease an angry mob. Nothing about getting these folks kicked out is changing hearts and minds, at least not in the direction you seem to think they are.
    It's actually to appease the big donors.

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  23. #2648
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    It's actually to appease the big donors.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    Not privy to the deliberations, obvs, but the Penn board met the day after and backed the president. Then the big donor to the business school said he’d pull his $100M funding and now she’s out.

    I’m sure this will all lead to evenly applied free expression on campus though.

  24. #2649
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    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  25. #2650
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Not privy to the deliberations, obvs, but the Penn board met the day after and backed the president. Then the big donor to the business school said he’d pull his $100M funding and now she’s out.

    I’m sure this will all lead to evenly applied free expression on campus though.
    Perhaps they can find a more ideologically malleable windsock he'll like better.
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

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